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GM Falls Below IPO Price as Rising Oil Dims Truck Outlook

ptif219 said:
It is all a scam the taxpayers lost and UAW won at our expense and through huge deceptions by Obama

GM's Phony Bailout Payback - Reason Magazine
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We won't know that for years. If the economy actually does recover, GM becomes a great company again and pays back all that money, then the bailout was a success.
What would you be saying now had there been no bailout and the country went into a depression? A depression worse than the Great One? Would you be crying that Obama didn't do enough to fix the economy?
 
USA_1 said:
We won't know that for years. If the economy actually does recover, GM becomes a great company again and pays back all that money, then the bailout was a success.
What would you be saying now had there been no bailout and the country went into a depression? A depression worse than the Great One? Would you be crying that Obama didn't do enough to fix the economy?
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Read my link they have not paid it all back that is an Obama scam. There is no proof Obama has done anything to change the economy. GM could have went into bankruptcy and done the same thing except that Obama wanted to help the unions and screw the taxpayer
 
ptif219 said:
Read my link they have not paid it all back that is an Obama scam. There is no proof Obama has done anything to change the economy. GM could have went into bankruptcy and done the same thing except that Obama wanted to help the unions and screw the taxpayer
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GM would have folded without the bailout.. Like I said you won't know for years.if the bailout was a success or not. Did you actually think they would start pying it back already? I was against the bailouts and TARP and now I am just waiting to see if they were the right thing to do.
 
USA_1 said:
GM would have folded without the bailout.. Like I said you won't know for years.if the bailout was a success or not. Did you actually think they would start pying it back already? I was against the bailouts and TARP and now I am just waiting to see if they were the right thing to do.
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They would not have failed they would have went to a real bankruptcy court not a give all to the unions Obama court.

Read my link they claim they paid it back but Obama and GM are deceiving and scaming the taxpayers.
 
upsideguy said:
1. Sorry, but its very typical to have a downtick in price after an IPO. The IPO event is hyped by the I-bankers, so the stock is often recesses from its IPO level within months. The long-term price will be tried to the performance of the company.
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We The People accept your apology......

G.M. Shares Must Hit New Heights to Pay Back U.S. - NYTimes.com

Yes of course.....just the typical downtick......now we just have to wait till GM hits $133.78 a share/pigs fly.......and we can start reaping some profits.

2. Anyone that has criticized the president for spending the bailout money and complained about that charge against the deficit as no right to complain about the "profit" or "lack of profit" on the bailout, as you have taken the posture that the money was expensed already.... thus we are already in a profit position since we had recovery on a sunk cost. Only if you have not criticized the bailout as an expense but rather viewed it as an investment (an asset) can you honestly keep score on the return on that investment.
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Call it an expense...call it an investment......its still a government "solution" to a government created disaster.....

No matter how you slice it, it was a helluva deal for the US tax payer. The unemployment paid to auto workers (GM, Chrysler and their supply chains) would have been far more dollars
than anything that might ultimately be "lost" on this deal. There are plenty of things to be critical of the Obama administration, but this one was a big win to any objective soul.
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I would say its a helluva of a deal for the UAW and its drones.........and few else.

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ptif219 said:
They would not have failed they would have went to a real bankruptcy court not a give all to the unions Obama court.

Read my link they claim they paid it back but Obama and GM are deceiving and scaming the taxpayers.
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GM would never have recovered without government money. It would have filed bankruptcy, broken up and sold off. Would that have been a good thing or bad thing. I don't know.
 
USA_1 said:
GM would never have recovered without government money. It would have filed bankruptcy, broken up and sold off. Would that have been a good thing or bad thing. I don't know.
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Which would have given GM/the new owners the chance to severe the tie to the 12 ton wellstone of Union Labor...........

.....and the chance to return to the business of making cars.....rather than Diamond inlayed Pensions and Gold Plated Benefits.
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USA_1 said:
GM would never have recovered without government money. It would have filed bankruptcy, broken up and sold off. Would that have been a good thing or bad thing. I don't know.
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That is crap and pure speculation on your part. They would have filed bankruptcy and restructured
 
ptif219 said:
They would have filed bankruptcy and restructured
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That is crap and pure speculation on your part. Without an influx of a lot money they would have folded. They could not have retooled, updated, reorganized without it. They would have been dead in the water. Their products would have been unsaleable.
 
USA_1 said:
That is crap and pure speculation on your part. Without an influx of a lot money they would have folded. They could not have retooled, updated, reorganized without it. They would have been dead in the water. Their products would have been unsaleable.
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Actually what you are saying are the words you used above. Most companies that go into chapter restructure and come out agin. Look at the airline industry for examples. Where do you think the supply would come from if not GM factories. To say otherwise just proves a lack of understanding ( no offense) of how business works in America. This is most helpful to the administration that would glories in suckering the public with dire pronouncements.
 
washunut said:
Actually what you are saying are the words you used above. Most companies that go into chapter restructure and come out agin. Look at the airline industry for examples. Where do you think the supply would come from if not GM factories. To say otherwise just proves a lack of understanding ( no offense) of how business works in America. This is most helpful to the administration that would glories in suckering the public with dire pronouncements.
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The capacity to build cars is much greater than the demand. Ford, Toyota, Honda, Nissan. Hyundai, Kia would have easily picked up the slack had GM went under. I do not believe GM would have survived bankruptcy and reorganization.
I do know how business works. GM would not have been the first automaker to cease to exist, there are dozens of them, airlines too. Their problems ran too deep to successfully come out of bankruptcy. They would have been broken up, sold off and liquidated. Without government money they could not compete with Ford. Toyota, Honda or any of the other carmakers.
There are too many automakers and the elimination of GM may have been a good thing in the long run.
Another gas crisis and all the automakers may be in trouble once again. GM surely would have been toast next gas crisis.
 
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USA_1 said:
The capacity to build cars is much greater than the demand. Ford, Toyota, Honda, Nissan. Hyundai, Kia would have easily picked up the slack had GM went under. I do not believe GM would have survived bankruptcy and reorganization.
I do know how business works. GM would not have been the first automaker to cease to exist, there are dozens of them, airlines too. Their problems ran too deep to successfully come out of bankruptcy. They would have been broken up, sold off and liquidated. Without government money they could not compete with Ford. Toyota, Honda or any of the other carmakers.
There are too many automakers and the elimination of GM may have been a good thing in the long run.
Another gas crisis and all the automakers may be in trouble once again. GM surely would have been toast next gas crisis.
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No offense but based on your response I do not think you understand modern business.
 
washunut said:
No offense but based on your response I do not think you understand modern business.
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I have a business degree and I honestly do not believe GM would have survived filing bankruptcy without the infusion of money. You do know there is overcapacity in the auto industry, don't you. Some automakers had to cut production in order to remain profitable. There are too many automakers and GM could not have competed after reorganization. GM may not even survive now but they really had no chance without government help.
You do know the automobile industry is still not out of the woods. Another recession brought on by high gas prices could hurt them once again. Without the bailout there is no way GM could survive another recession.
What you seem to ignore is the fact that demand for autos is far below production capacity.

Where do you think GM would be right now facing high gas prices and another recession without the bailout?
 
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USA_1 said:
I have a business degree and I honestly do not believe GM would have survived filing bankruptcy without the infusion of money. You do know there is overcapacity in the auto industry, don't you. Some automakers had to cut production in order to remain profitable. There are too many automakers and GM could not have competed after reorganization. GM may not even survive now but they really had no chance without government help.
You do know the automobile industry is still not out of the woods. Another recession brought on by high gas prices could hurt them once again. Without the bailout there is no way GM could survive another recession.
What you seem to ignore is the fact that demand for autos is far below production capacity.

Where do you think GM would be right now facing high gas prices and another recession without the bailout?
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There is overcapacity in most industries. Capacity utilization is around 80% in the U.S. That is different than saying that industrives cannot survive or even thive. A company going into reorg gets the chance to undo their mistakes. My sense is that the company, GM would be in BETTER shape if they can gone through reorg versus the bailout. Under bailout they had to make decisions that may be good politically but not good for the company and the workers to have long term sucess.
 
washunut said:
There is overcapacity in most industries. Capacity utilization is around 80% in the U.S. That is different than saying that industrives cannot survive or even thive. A company going into reorg gets the chance to undo their mistakes. My sense is that the company, GM would be in BETTER shape if they can gone through reorg versus the bailout. Under bailout they had to make decisions that may be good politically but not good for the company and the workers to have long term sucess.
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Are you sure you understand modern business?
Here is one viewpoint. I guess they don't understand business either.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/13/news/companies/gm_bankruptcy/index.htm
 
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GM due to the timing of it entering its trouble would have had a very hard time finding any bankrupcty funding to allow it to operate during bankruptcy. It was at the height of the financial crisis that GM went broke. Funding for profitable business's was hard to get, let alone business's losing billions of dollars. No financial institutions would have poured the billions of dollars into GM at that time. Leaving GM with one option, selling the company to another car company. No european car company would have wanted it, (other then certain parts), no US car maker could afford to. Nor would any Japanese company wanted it. Leaving various Chinese companies as the prime suitors for GM. GM would have been a good catch for SAIC, or Chery, Geely or some of the other Chinese main automakers. But I doubt the US would have allowed GM to be bought by a Chinese company

So at the time of the GM bankruptcy there would have been 4 options. Dissolving GM, government funded bankrupcty, governemnt funding outside of bankruptcy and selling the company to a chinese firm
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
GM due to the timing of it entering its trouble would have had a very hard time finding any bankrupcty funding to allow it to operate during bankruptcy. It was at the height of the financial crisis that GM went broke. Funding for profitable business's was hard to get, let alone business's losing billions of dollars. No financial institutions would have poured the billions of dollars into GM at that time. Leaving GM with one option, selling the company to another car company. No european car company would have wanted it, (other then certain parts), no US car maker could afford to. Nor would any Japanese company wanted it. Leaving various Chinese companies as the prime suitors for GM. GM would have been a good catch for SAIC, or Chery, Geely or some of the other Chinese main automakers. But I doubt the US would have allowed GM to be bought by a Chinese company

So at the time of the GM bankruptcy there would have been 4 options. Dissolving GM, government funded bankrupcty, governemnt funding outside of bankruptcy and selling the company to a chinese firm
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I agree. I think it would have been almost impossible for GM to survive bankruptcy without government funding.
 
USA_1 said:
That is crap and pure speculation on your part. Without an influx of a lot money they would have folded. They could not have retooled, updated, reorganized without it. They would have been dead in the water. Their products would have been unsaleable.
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Yes they could have but Obama could not let that happen because the unions would be the big losers.

So Obama takes over and the unions become the big winner and taxpayers the big losers
 
USA_1 said:
I have a business degree and I honestly do not believe GM would have survived filing bankruptcy without the infusion of money. You do know there is overcapacity in the auto industry, don't you. Some automakers had to cut production in order to remain profitable. There are too many automakers and GM could not have competed after reorganization. GM may not even survive now but they really had no chance without government help.
You do know the automobile industry is still not out of the woods. Another recession brought on by high gas prices could hurt them once again. Without the bailout there is no way GM could survive another recession.
What you seem to ignore is the fact that demand for autos is far below production capacity.

Where do you think GM would be right now facing high gas prices and another recession without the bailout?
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I don't care I think chapter 11 would have worked. The bail out was not to save GM but was Obama saving the unions.
 
USA_1 said:
I agree. I think it would have been almost impossible for GM to survive bankruptcy without government funding.
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I don't. This whole GM bailout is a scam and they have not paid the government back and probably never will. The unions win the taxpayers lose
 
Badmutha said:
Remember......Obama told us that "we would make a profit" from bailing out the UAW Union of Slobs.........the same for TARP.

.....if you havent received a GM profit sharing check or TARP dividend check yet.....your in for an eternal wait.
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This thread is a pitiful piece of partisan hackery.
The whole market, and of course the auto stocks, have suffered because of the Libya Oil Price shock.
So let's blame that on Obama! Yeah!

GO FOX GOONS GO!

and btw, without TARP there would be no Banks, No Market, no economy, and No jobs.
The Car companies and a few million Jobs down the supply and retail chain were saved rather cheaply.
 
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ptif219 said:
I don't. This whole GM bailout is a scam and they have not paid the government back and probably never will. The unions win the taxpayers lose
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Well I disagree. GM would have not been able to get financing after filing for bankrupty. It would have been done. Now if that is a good or bad thing is a different story.
 
ptif219 said:
I don't care I think chapter 11 would have worked. The bail out was not to save GM but was Obama saving the unions.
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Why would it have worked?
 
mbig said:
GO FOX GOONS GO!
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LOL!

the only links pasted in this thread are from businessweek, reuters, cnn, abc, the nyt and forbes

what are ya lookin at?
 
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