• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

Status
Not open for further replies.
do you forget that union members are also taxpayers and voters?
 
Catawba said:
African American children score low nationwide in reading. It is due to socio-economic reasons, not a failure on the part of teachers. As has been shown Wisconsin is far above the national average in test scores across the board in education.
Click to expand...

Wrong the teachers have them 9 months a year so they must not be teaching blacks correctly.

So are you being racists and saying whites are smarter than blacks so are easier to teach?
 
liblady said:
do you forget that union members are also taxpayers and voters?
Click to expand...

Do you realize if the dems stay gone they will be responsible for more debt tomorrow and the governor will be forced to layoff teachers.

One more thing to use a favorite dem saying the union voters are out of the main stream and don't get it
 
Last edited:
Catawba said:
"That will be news to the thousands of Union workers that I once represented and later negotiated with. I'm sure the Officers and members of the National Association of Letter Carriers and the American Postal Workers Union would be surprised to find out that they don't have collective bargaining. Especially since that explicit right was given to them in the 1971 Postal Reorganization Act. I'm pretty sure that I remember discussing grievances, advocating in arbitration cases and negotiating at the bargaining table as both a Union Business Agent and later a Management Labor Relations Specialist working for the USPS.

Since 2004 and my retirement from the USPS I have been in practice as a Labor Arbitrator. I'm certain it would come as a surprise to the US Army Corps of Engineers, The U.S. Airforce, The U.S. Navy, the Veterans Administration, and the Department of Justice, that they don't have collective bargaining agreements with their civilian employees, since I have heard and decided arbitration cases for all these federal agencies."
Daily Kos: Meet The Press Fail
Click to expand...

Daily Kos? no wonder. Not sure what you negotiated but it certainly wasn't wages and benefits.

Suggest you get the facts

FederalDaily.com > Federal Employee Labor & Management > Labor-Management Relations
 
Last edited:
ptif219 said:
Wrong the teachers have them 9 months a year so they must not be teaching blacks correctly.

So are you being racists and saying whites are smarter than blacks so are easier to teach?
Click to expand...

Thanks for your opinion ptif, as usual that is all you have to prove your point. I've provided credible state rankings that show Wisconsin is well above the national average in educational test scores. Still waiting for you to provide state rankings that dispute those I have provided.
 
Catawba said:
"That will be news to the thousands of Union workers that I once represented and later negotiated with. I'm sure the Officers and members of the National Association of Letter Carriers and the American Postal Workers Union would be surprised to find out that they don't have collective bargaining. Especially since that explicit right was given to them in the 1971 Postal Reorganization Act. I'm pretty sure that I remember discussing grievances, advocating in arbitration cases and negotiating at the bargaining table as both a Union Business Agent and later a Management Labor Relations Specialist working for the USPS.

Since 2004 and my retirement from the USPS I have been in practice as a Labor Arbitrator. I'm certain it would come as a surprise to the US Army Corps of Engineers, The U.S. Airforce, The U.S. Navy, the Veterans Administration, and the Department of Justice, that they don't have collective bargaining agreements with their civilian employees, since I have heard and decided arbitration cases for all these federal agencies."
Daily Kos: Meet The Press Fail
Click to expand...

3.The scope of mandatory collective bargaining for federal employees is limited to personnel employment practices only. Basic working conditions such as wages, hours of work, and employee benefits are instead subject to statutory provisions. Union and agency contract provisions as well as all other forms of compulsory union support are prohibited in the federal civil service.
Click to expand...

The Federal Civil Service Reform Act [Mackinac Center]

Title VII of the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978--You can thank Democrat Jimmy Carter. ;-)


Another interesting point:

The act states that employees of the federal government have --

the right to form, join, or assist any labor organization, or to refrain from any such activity, freely and without fear of penalty or reprisal, and each employee shall be protected in the exercise of such right.
Click to expand...
(Also at link.)

Translation: Even Federal government employees don't have a closed shop.

Now, back to Catawba. You could have chosen to be honest and differentiate that fact about Federal collective bargaining rights -- but you chose not to. Do you think DP posters are stupid? Or will you say anything you have to to advance your own position?
 
Catawba said:
Thanks for your opinion ptif, as usual that is all you have to prove your point. I've provided credible state rankings that show Wisconsin is well above the national average in educational test scores. Still waiting for you to provide state rankings that dispute those I have provided.
Click to expand...

"Well above the average" indicts the entire public education system in the United States of America. When 2/3 of 8th Graders in Wisconsion read just at basic or below levels, and you show statistics that their test scores are well above average, you have proven nothing except that our education system needs a complete overhaul.
 
MaggieD said:
"Well above the average" indicts the entire public education system in the United States of America. When 2/3 of 8th Graders in Wisconsion read just at basic or below levels, and you show statistics that their test scores are well above average, you have proven nothing except that our education system needs a complete overhaul.
Click to expand...

From the narrow viewpoint you have expressed, I can see how you would come to that conclusion. However, if you understand the socio-economic conditions that lead to African-American doing poorly in reading nationwide, you come to a much better understanding of the problem. But that fails to make your point here so you ignore it.

Show me state rankings that place Wisconsin below the state average in overall test scores.
 
Catawba said:
From the narrow viewpoint you have expressed, I can see how you would come to that conclusion. However, if you understand the socio-economic conditions that lead to African-American doing poorly in reading nationwide, you come to a much better understanding of the problem. But that fails to make your point here so you ignore it.

Show me state rankings that place Wisconsin below the state average in overall test scores.
Click to expand...

How arrogant. Really. If our educational system cannot teach the lower socio-economic groups in our country to read beyond "basic," the system needs to change. There is absolutely no subject in school more important than reading. Fail at that level = fail at every level.

Again, you don't get it. Where Wisconsin falls re state averages makes absolutely no difference if the whole system is failing.
 
Last edited:
MaggieD said:
How arrogant. Really. If our educational system cannot teach the lower socio-economic groups in our country to read beyond "basic," the system needs to change. There is absolutely no subject in school more important than reading. Fail at that level = fail at every level.

Again, you don't get it. Where Wisconsin falls re state averages makes absolutely no difference if the whole system is failing.
Click to expand...


So you have no proof that Wisconsin ranks lower than the national average on educational test scores?
 
Catawba said:
So you have no proof that Wisconsin ranks lower than the national average on educational test scores?
Click to expand...

Are you one of the teachers that taught our children? I'm not looking for proof. I'm tired of providing link-after-after-link to DP posters who do nothing but demand more. For all I know, Wisconsin ranks #1. Hell, I hope they do because that would be the biggest indictman against our public education system that I could produce....when 2/3 of their 8th Graders can't even read proficiently.

And while you're about changing the subject, how about a response to this?

Now, back to Catawba. You could have chosen to be honest and differentiate that fact about Federal collective bargaining rights -- but you chose not to. Do you think DP posters are stupid? Or will you say anything you have to to advance your own position?
Click to expand...
 
donc said:
What "democrat took away bargaining power with a wage freeze "?
Click to expand...


Why don’t you explain to me how sticking it to care givers in VA hospitals with a two-year freeze on wages.. Horrendous as it is, to returning Vets “takes away any bargaining power”?

All I can see is that it is taking qualified Rehab specialist in Physical, mental, occupational therapy, as well as exacerbating a perpetual shortage of RN,s. Check out the shortages of any of the above occupations, at your nearest Veterans hospital, whose pay is already almost 25% less than the areas private sector. While your there you might want to sign up for some volunteer work in your free time…. Nah,you better not.
 
Catawba said:
Thanks for your opinion ptif, as usual that is all you have to prove your point. I've provided credible state rankings that show Wisconsin is well above the national average in educational test scores. Still waiting for you to provide state rankings that dispute those I have provided.
Click to expand...

So you are racist and don't care about blacks I get it
 
Catawba said:
From the narrow viewpoint you have expressed, I can see how you would come to that conclusion. However, if you understand the socio-economic conditions that lead to African-American doing poorly in reading nationwide, you come to a much better understanding of the problem. But that fails to make your point here so you ignore it.

Show me state rankings that place Wisconsin below the state average in overall test scores.
Click to expand...

Thats a copout. You are being racist and saying white kids are smarter and learn faster thatn black kids. the problem is the education system that money will not fix.
 
donc said:
Why don’t you explain to me how sticking it to care givers in VA hospitals with a two-year freeze on wages.. Horrendous as it is, to returning Vets “takes away any bargaining power”?

All I can see is that it is taking qualified Rehab specialist in Physical, mental, occupational therapy, as well as exacerbating a perpetual shortage of RN,s. Check out the shortages of any of the above occupations, at your nearest Veterans hospital, whose pay is already almost 25% less than the areas private sector. While your there you might want to sign up for some volunteer work in your free time…. Nah,you better not.
Click to expand...

Obama froze federal workers wages for 2 years yet no complaints. This means no unions can do collective barganing for 2 years. Not a word from the employees or unions. That show the uproar in Wisconsin is partisan BS
 
ptif219 said:
Obama froze federal workers wages for 2 years yet no complaints. This means no unions can do collective barganing for 2 years. Not a word from the employees or unions. That show the uproar in Wisconsin is partisan BS
Click to expand...

You had better check your stats out ...its a pay freeze and doesn't effect collective bargaining.
 
donc said:
You had better check your stats out ...its a pay freeze and doesn't effect collective bargaining.
Click to expand...

Take off your lil' tinfoil hat and check post #1442. ;-) ;-) You're right about one thing here....it doesn't effect their collective bargaining rights....'cause they lost them under Jimmy Carter. They don't have any wage/benefit collective bargaining rights.
 
pbrauer said:
You don't seem to mind that the corporations have become a much stronger political machine through the Citizens United decision.
Click to expand...

CU was about free speech. That decision benefitted both big business and big unions. But of course, your statement only proves that this all a power-grub. It has nothing to do with violating people's rights.
 
MaggieD said:
Are you one of the teachers that taught our children? I'm not looking for proof. I'm tired of providing link-after-after-link to DP posters who do nothing but demand more. For all I know, Wisconsin ranks #1. Hell, I hope they do because that would be the biggest indictman against our public education system that I could produce....when 2/3 of their 8th Graders can't even read proficiently.
Click to expand...

No, to answer your question. Some had questioned where Wisconsin placed in the National educational rankings. That is why I provided the evidence that they do indeed exceed the national average. I am glad you concur! There is no doubt that we need to work on the socio-economic conditions that lead to nationwide African-American deficiencies in reading.


how about a response to this?
Click to expand...

Now, back to Catawba. You could have chosen to be honest and differentiate that fact about Federal collective bargaining rights -- but you chose not to. Do you think DP posters are stupid? Or will you say anything you have to to advance your own position?
Click to expand...

The claim was made that the federal government did not allow collective bargaining. I demonstrated this claim was untrue. That is the only point relevant to a discussion of ending collective bargaining in Wisconsin as the teachers have already conceded budget related items.

I would ask you why you tried to make a point about low reading scores in Wisconsin when you knew that is a national problem, in order to advance your own position?
 
Last edited:
ptif219 said:
Do you realize if the dems stay gone they will be responsible for more debt tomorrow and the governor will be forced to layoff teachers.

One more thing to use a favorite dem saying the union voters are out of the main stream and don't get it
Click to expand...
do you realize this could be over TODAY if the governor would drop the union busting tactics, and negotiate in good faith? he has already been told the unions are willing to make the concessions he seeks....this is a 'crisis' of his own making, all he is seeking to do is break the unions/hurt the democratic party....the whole 'more debt' is a smokescreen to hide his true intentions.
 
ptif219 said:
You ignore the facts we posted but I would expect nothing else from you
Click to expand...

Where have you posted National achievement rankings by state that show Wisconsin is not above the national average?
 
ptif219 said:
Thats a copout. You are being racist and saying white kids are smarter and learn faster thatn black kids. the problem is the education system that money will not fix.
Click to expand...

Go look up socio-economic conditions.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom