Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

haymarket · Feb 25, 2011

TurtleDude said:
I studied labor history. I have a degree in labor relations-

I love the way you come up with a personal history which fits as proof for every ridiculous statement you make about government or history. its really quite creative. You seem to wear more hats than a whole squad of Keystone Cops.

Conservative · Feb 25, 2011

Catawba said:
He obviously doesn't understand the importance of education.

Really impressed by numbers I see. Do you know what goes into those numbers and do you really believe that the higher the spending the better the results? Are both state and federal spending included? Do you realize that we have a 14.5 trillion dollar economy thus how much of that economy is spent on education? If you learned to think in school then you need to practice what you were taught.

haymarket · Feb 25, 2011

whysoserious said:
That's a terrible analogy. That is what is called a straw man. You simply took my point of view, packaged it and turned it into something else, and then tackled that argument.

Guess what? I never asked whether or not you could buy a car. I asked why I should believe the free market is correct in deciding compensation for a CEO that makes 2150 times the amount of most his employees? That was my question.

Get used to it my friend. It is standard operating procedure for that poster and is his favorite way of 'debating'. twist it - change it - rephrase it - pervert it - turn it into a Frankenstein monster of the actual idea - because its so much easier to attack it that way.

And get ready for the part where he puts on the referee suit and proclaims himself the winner, you the loser, and you FAIL. Thats my personal favorite part.

whysoserious · Feb 25, 2011

Conservative said:
Really impressed by numbers I see. Do you know what goes into those numbers and do you really believe that the higher the spending the better the results? Are both state and federal spending included? Do you realize that we have a 14.5 trillion dollar economy thus how much of that economy is spent on education? If you learned to think in school then you need to practice what you were taught.

I also showed you that our rankings weren't great either. In fact, just like our spending is average, so is our education system (and yes, my numbers were the total amount spent as a percentage of GDP - so the amount spent doesn't matter since it is compared to GDP):

U.S. Falls In World Education Rankings, Rated 'Average'

The three-yearly OECD Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) report, which compares the knowledge and skills of 15-year-olds in 70 countries around the world, ranked the United States 14th out of 34 OECD countries for reading skills, 17th for science and a below-average 25th for mathematics.

I don't mind if you cut education but it better be through streamlining - not firing teachers and making classrooms bigger. Also, liberal arts programs are constantly being cut and it's unacceptable.

Catawba · Feb 25, 2011

Conservative said:
No, learn to read, I asked you why we have a Federal Education Budget and a state Education budget since education is a state responsibility.

And I explained to you the importance of education to our country. If education was only important to the states, it might make sense leaving it up to them. However, our Constitution mandates that the US government promote the general welfare.

Barbbtx · Feb 25, 2011

solletica said:
More like the sour taste of right wing deception (and hypocrisy).

As a classical liberal, I wholeheartedly support the idea of laissez-faire capitalism, the idea of a neutral minimal government that doesn't tax people and/or run up deficits to redistribute money, and the right of any individual or entity (including one that calls itself the "State of Wisconsin") to hire whomever they damn well want (including someone undocumented), without having to abide by hiring laws of any kind, including those that require them to defer to union restrictions/guidelines.

However, GOPers have never been in favor of such a system.

It's more likely the case that Walker wants to cut State employee benefits to avoid cutting State subsidy payments to organizations/businesses favored by his backers (i. e. private business owners, CEOs). And, oh look. . .

Business subsidy reforms backed - JSOnline

Fat chance those reforms will pass. Alas, that's the trouble with right wingers--they're too addicted to welfare to balance any budgets.

Your link is things that happened under a Dem governor.

Catawba · Feb 25, 2011

haymarket said:
I love the way you come up with a personal history which fits as proof for every ridiculous statement you make about government or history. its really quite creative. You seem to wear more hats than a whole squad of Keystone Cops.

You've notice that too?

Mach · Feb 25, 2011

whysoserious said:
You want them to purchase stock on $8 an hour?

Work your way up to it. You know it takes work and time to earn. Why do you want a reward before you invest anything? It's silly.

That's true. People can work their way up. It does not change the fact that the CEO is earning 2150 times most of the employees though.

I cited sources to dismiss your numbers as average CEO compensation. 300-500 range, stop cherry picking for effect.

You think someone who makes $8 has the capital to start a business?

Yes, they have the only thing it takes human capital.
My first job was at minimum wage. I worked my way up through the market, and started a business.
How is this possible?

I find those making large salaries off of the backs of hard-working Americans to be insufficient.

Exactly. You want to step in and dicatate to others what they can recieve in payment, and what the emloyer should pay them. It's authoritarian, sorry.

Again, I haven't received an answer:How much would the CEO make if the cashiers, janitor, stock boys, etc didn't exist? Where would Wal-Mart be then? Are they not a vital part of the company?

Because it makes no sense. Didn't exist? Are they in a ****ing black hole? I guess he'd get sucked in the black hole too?
Did they get disintigrated by Klingons? If they all quit, the CEO would go get another job, or hire more people. What the **** do you think he'd do?

I care

Authoritarians care about telling people what to do. Slave owners care about keeping slaves.
Caring, you see, is hardly meaningful to the discussion.

If the free market is so perfect, why do we have thousands of market regulations? Since when does perfection require regulation?

Who claimed the free market was perfect?
And who claimed free markets (in reality) exist or can exist without rules (typically government in origin)?

You're barking up the wrong tree.

Barbbtx · Feb 25, 2011

randel said:
sorry cochise...i don't shop wally world.

But you don't care if prices go up for everyone who does shop there? Nice

Not everyone can afford to shop at Whole Foods.

What if...? · Feb 25, 2011

Didn't have time to read the whole thread, but it's going in it's usual endless circle. I posted this link on another thread, and while it is more focused on taxes I believe it provides an interesting perspective:

TomPaine.com - Hidden Truths Of Progressive Taxes

Further, I think I finally understand the perspective of those at the head of the conservative propaganda firehose. And I have to thank Turtledude for this insight:

The wealthy in this country lack the votes necessary to create the economic environment that would allow them to compete with their counterparts in southeast asia. They have peasants. Millions of people desperate for $2 a day.

No unions there. 16 hour workdays. 7 day work weeks. No benefits, no pensions, nothing. $2 a day, out the door. Just like America prior to the Union movement.

Our wealthy want the same right to an exploitable peasantry as their foreign competitors have. So they came up with a plan. What we are seeing today is the final phase of this plan.

Citizens United grants wealth the right to spend as much on political campains as it wants, without any disclosure.

Bust the unions and they eliminate a major obstacle to their plans.

In the early part of the last century, the people got the government to take the middle class from wealth.

Now they want their peasants back

Sound about right?

Barbbtx · Feb 25, 2011

randel said:
they perform a service, so yes, they EARN their money.

I didn't say they didn't earn it. I said the tax payer pays their wages so therefore they are the ones paying the Union dues.

Catawba · Feb 25, 2011

Conservative said:
Do you realize that we have a 14.5 trillion dollar economy thus how much of that economy is spent on education?

Not near enough. How much below the comparably educated average worker's pay do you think teachers should receive for the task of teaching our future generation?

haymarket · Feb 25, 2011

Catawba said:
You've notice that too?

Yes. Its hard not to notice since shameless self promotion seems to be the number message next to Democrats fleecing the rich to reward the poor for voting for them.

randel · Feb 25, 2011

Barbbtx said:
I didn't say they didn't earn it. I said the tax payer pays their wages so therefore they are the ones paying the Union dues.

once the money is in their hands, it no longer belongs to the 'taxpayers'...are you saying these folks need taxpayer approval before spending money they earned?

Catawba · Feb 25, 2011

What if...? said:
Didn't have time to read the whole thread, but it's going in it's usual endless circle. I posted this link on another thread, and while it is more focused on taxes I believe it provides an interesting perspective:

TomPaine.com - Hidden Truths Of Progressive Taxes

Further, I think I finally understand the perspective of those at the head of the conservative propaganda firehose. And I have to thank Turtledude for this insight:

The wealthy in this country lack the votes necessary to create the economic environment that would allow them to compete with their counterparts in southeast asia. They have peasants. Millions of people desperate for $2 a day.

No unions there. 16 hour workdays. 7 day work weeks. No benefits, no pensions, nothing. $2 a day, out the door. Just like America prior to the Union movement.

Our wealthy want the same right to an exploitable peasantry as their foreign competitors have. So they came up with a plan. What we are seeing today is the final phase of this plan.

Citizens United grants wealth the right to spend as much on political campains as it wants, without any disclosure.

Bust the unions and they eliminate a major obstacle to their plans.

In the early part of the last century, the people got the government to take the middle class from wealth.

Now they want their peasants back

Sound about right?

How else can the corporations compete and keep their CEO's making 2,000 times what the workers make. Its our patriotic duty to accept third world wages to provide a level playing field for them, is it not???

whysoserious · Feb 25, 2011

Mach said:
Work your way up to it. You know it takes work and time to earn. Why do you want a reward before you invest anything? It's silly.

Some people can't work their way up much more than where they start. Some people aren't very smart, unfortunately.

Mach said:
I cited sources to dismiss your numbers as average CEO compensation. 300-500 range, stop cherry picking for effect.

I am using one of the worst case scenarios. 300-500 isn't much better.

Mach said:
Yes, they have the only thing it takes human capital.

Oh, let me run down to the bank and let them know that I have human capital and get that loan then!

Mach said:
My first job was at minimum wage. I worked my way up through the market, and started a business.
How is this possible?

Good for you!

Mach said:
Exactly. You want to step in and dicatate to others what they can recieve in payment, and what the emloyer should pay them. It's authoritarian, sorry.

That's what regulations are. So are regulations are evil because they "dictate to other" what they can do? I don't get your point. Why do you get to dictate to me what regulation is good and what regulaton is evil?

Mach said:
Because it makes no sense. Didn't exist? Are they in a ****ing black hole? I guess he'd get sucked in the black hole too?

How do I say this without coming off harsh... its a simple question, man. Here, I'll answer it for you:

Without the cashiers, stock boys, greeters, etc, Wal-Mart wouldn't make a dime and the CEO wouldn't make a dime either. Wow, that was easy.

Mach said:
Did they get disintigrated by Klingons? If they all quit, the CEO would go get another job, or hire more people. What the **** do you think he'd do?

Right because they have to take the salary because Wal-Mart does not allow collective bargaining. They are bullies.

Mach said:
Authoritarians care about telling people what to do. Slave owners care about keeping slaves.

Now you are comparing me to a slave owner because I think the CEO of Wal-Mart makes too much money?

Mach said:
Caring, you see, is hardly meaningful to the discussion.

You asked who cared. I answered. Are you thick? :lamo

Mach said:
Who claimed the free market was perfect?
And who claimed free markets (in reality) exist or can exist without rules (typically government in origin)?

Well I assume then, that since you admit the free market is not perfect, that you will not ever again say, "because the free market decided it".

Mach said:
You're barking up the wrong tree.

I don't even think you know what you are talking about anymore. You're just throwing out insults, straw mans, and making things up as you go. "You're barking up the wrong tree" made no sense there.

Barbbtx · Feb 25, 2011

whysoserious said:
That didn't answer anything. You basically just said, "I am right, you are wrong. Shut up."

What makes one person in a company worth 2100 times another? How much would the CEO be making if it was not for the cashiers, stock boys, greeters, janitors, etc?

How much would those cashiers, stock boys, greeters, janitors, be making if they worked for another store?

solletica · Feb 25, 2011

Catawba said:
What you speak of is the exception, not the rule. I am married to a teacher and I can tell you she works harder and puts in more hours that her private sector counterparts for less money.

Yes, there are many public school teachers who are passionate about what they do and are paid less than what they're worth.

My point was that there is little ethical difference between the lazy schoolteacher exploiting her union position and the CEO exploiting professional contacts, except in the extent of schmoozing.

whysoserious · Feb 25, 2011

Barbbtx said:
How much would those cashiers, stock boys, greeters, janitors, be making if they worked for another store?

Well that is just my argument. The free market has set their value and it has set the value of their respective CEOs. I am arguing that the free market, in this case, got it wrong. Especially in the case of Wal-Mart, which in my opinion is proof of what happens when unions are not allowed to enter into a market. And even with unions, it would be difficult to raise compensation to a fair level because the free market has deemed these people so unvaluable.

According to this Wal-Mart fact sheet, they employ around 2 million people worldwide:

http://walmartstores.com/download/2230.pdf

So that means, if the CEO were to take an $8 million dollar pay cut (he would still make $27 million not including benefits and bonuses), each employee would receive $4 an hour more. That's a 50% increase in wages for many of their employees! In fact, for those that have a starting salary of $8 an hour, their annual salary would look like this:

$8: $16,440 (which if I have to tell you how terrible that is...)
$12: $24,960 (still not great)

To me, that is a market failure that this can happen in front of everyones eyes and nothign is done. In fact, many of you argue against it.

What if...? · Feb 25, 2011

Waaaah! The meme-herders never want to play with me!

Barbbtx · Feb 25, 2011

solletica said:
It is--as a result of those subsidies, other people's (or your kids') taxes will be increased to cover it.

Not sure but could the lack of subsidies effect the price of gas for all of us?

Catawba · Feb 25, 2011

solletica said:
Yes, there are many public school teachers who are passionate about what they do and are paid less than what they're worth.

My point was that there is little ethical difference between the lazy schoolteacher exploiting her union position and the CEO exploiting professional contacts, except in the extent of schmoozing.

I guess I don't see the exploitation you see by public school teachers. If there is a bad teacher in your school district, there are more opportunities to address that than in the private sector. And the so called exploitation, I suppose you mean their meager salary and benefits, is about what the average is for someone with comparable education.

Are there probably some examples of bad teachers in Wisconsin that don't deserve $75,000 a year? I'm sure there are but it doesn't mean that teachers in general are being overpaid.

We have a lot of problems in this country but overpaid teachers is not one of them.

Barbbtx · Feb 25, 2011

haymarket said:
Your post is a perfect illustration of the evils of the right wings conservatives in many states putting the goose step to text book publishers to sanitize their US History textbooks of anything about actual American labor history. Thank you for providing this insight.

Two minutes ago you were telling someone to look at his calendar and forget what FDR said about public sector Unions...now...

Barbbtx · Feb 25, 2011

Catawba said:
So your thinking is a state governor has no need to conduct himself better than our average individual thug?

He did conduct himself better. He didn't do what they thought about doing. I'm thinking about smacking my cat because he is bugging me right now. I'm not going to though, because I don't believe in abusing animals.

Barbbtx · Feb 25, 2011

solletica said:
If the employee has developed no prior cozy relationship (either direct or indirect) with his/her employer, he/she is always paid the bare minimum by his/her employer. It's just that with union shop agreements, that bare minimum is higher.

Sure...that's why Wal-Mart pays well above minimum wage and has good benefits. Guess they all must have cozy relationships with the boss.

Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

haymarket

Conservative

haymarket

whysoserious

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

Barbbtx

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

Mach

Barbbtx

What if...?

Barbbtx

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

haymarket

randel

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

whysoserious

Barbbtx

solletica

whysoserious

What if...?

Barbbtx

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

Barbbtx

Barbbtx

Barbbtx