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Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

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How do you explain tax revenue growing after the tax increases under Clinton? How do you explain tax revenue growing in the absence of any change to tax rates?

I would explain it as the 1994 elections that put the GOP in charge and a GOP that recinded most of those tax increases. You were probably too young to understand
 
I would explain it as the 1994 elections that put the GOP in charge and a GOP that recinded most of those tax increases. You were probably too young to understand

So it's tax cuts, except when it isn't and you got to blame it on something else with zero data. Your argument is looking kinda silly.

By the way, I was already out of the military when this happened. Your backassed insult failed miserably. When you have to resort to stupid **** like that, it is pretty much proof that you know you have failed and are looking for anything to save face.
 
Again, my point is state employee and retiree salaries and benefits are NOT the main cause of these state's budget shortfalls, and the collective bargaining power afforded state employee unions should not be held accountable for any given state's inability to balance their own budgets. The legislators created the mess, but state employees are paying for it. That's wrong.

Everybody is going to have to pay for it. And, yes, legislators created the mess. Gov. Walker wants to take bargaining wages out of the legislators' hands and put it in the hands of the people. I have no problem with that. Why should you?

(BTW, let's not be patronizing here, okay? I may be a state employee, but I pay city, state and federal taxes just as everyone else. I pay my property taxes same as you. I shop at retail stores same as you. I live in much the same way as everybody else. So, let's not attempt to differentiate one world view from another simply because I work in state government. Contrary to popular belief, I live in the exact same world as you do. My association with public (state and federal government) and private sector employment may provide me with a better perspective on these such issues than you may otherwise believe. So, let's first seek to understand one another then be understood, before passing judgment shall we?)

Your list of what was being asked of state employees got my goat. It's being asked of everyone. No one is singling out the public sector. People who work for state governments and have defined benefit pension plans have a different world view because they live in a different world. Their pensions are far and away more generous than the private sector employees who have to pay for them.
 
So it's tax cuts, except when it isn't and you got to blame it on something else with zero data. Your argument is looking kinda silly.

By the way, I was already out of the military when this happened. Your backassed insult failed miserably. When you have to resort to stupid **** like that, it is pretty much proof that you know you have failed and are looking for anything to save face.

Well, well, well, I knew there was a reason that I didn't respond to you in the past. I used poor judgment and decided to give you another chance. Looks like I was wrong.

Amazing that this is still about you keeping more of what you earn and I am the only one defending it. Your lack of economic understanding is staggering. Obviously you don't understand that tax cuts mean more take home pay and less need for all that govt. help that you want to promote. I certainly hope that you are sending your tax cuts back since apparently the govt. needs the money more than you do.

For someone that claims to have served in the military you sure have a distorted view of the U.S. Economy and what drives it. Doubt seriously that you did indeed serve but that is irrelevant. Figure out the components of GDP and get back to me. Then you might be able to figure out how tax cuts and tax increases affect economic growth. The word incentive doesn't seem to exist in the liberal world.
 
Well, well, well, I knew there was a reason that I didn't respond to you in the past. I used poor judgment and decided to give you another chance. Looks like I was wrong.

Amazing that this is still about you keeping more of what you earn and I am the only one defending it. Your lack of economic understanding is staggering. Obviously you don't understand that tax cuts mean more take home pay and less need for all that govt. help that you want to promote. I certainly hope that you are sending your tax cuts back since apparently the govt. needs the money more than you do.

For someone that claims to have served in the military you sure have a distorted view of the U.S. Economy and what drives it. Doubt seriously that you did indeed serve but that is irrelevant. Figure out the components of GDP and get back to me. Then you might be able to figure out how tax cuts and tax increases affect economic growth. The word incentive doesn't seem to exist in the liberal world.

Hey look, more insults, and complete avoiding talking about my point. Good job! When you have some one beat, you can always tell.
 
People line up to work at Walmarts because once a Walmart moves in, they will not be able to compete with them

Competition in the free market is new to you? I blame our education system.
If Wal-Mart moved in to compete, you can move out to compete.
You can also pick a market to compete in without Wal-Mart. Hell, you can use Wal-Mart in your supply chain.

You don't really have a point in any of this.
 
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Of course they do not participate in small markets

Contradicts:
you are already stopped the moment your business starts to try to compete with theirs.

If they are not in that market, they are NOT COMPETING WITH YOU.

Hell, even tiny fish still routinely displace the giant global brands. How did Gates compete with IBM again? Papa Johns with PizzaHut/Dominos?

You have to find new reasoning to back up your beliefs, because these are obviously false.
 
Hey look, more insults, and complete avoiding talking about my point. Good job! When you have some one beat, you can always tell.

Sounds like you asked for it or expected it after this...

Redress said:
By the way, I was already out of the military when this happened. Your backassed insult failed miserably. When you have to resort to stupid **** like that, it is pretty much proof that you know you have failed and are looking for anything to save face.
 
Contradicts:


If they are not in that market, they are NOT COMPETING WITH YOU.

Hell, even tiny fish still routinely displace the giant global brands. How did Gates compete with IBM again? Papa Johns with PizzaHut/Dominos?

You have to find new reasoning to back up your beliefs, because these are obviously false.

Actually the don't contradict. They do not participate in small markets because they go regional/national/global and in doing so, they eat up the small markets in the process.

I like how you take my quotes of context and you have to find new reasoning that I am wrong because your old reasons are obviously false.
 
Everybody is going to have to pay for it. And, yes, legislators created the mess. Gov. Walker wants to take bargaining wages out of the legislators' hands and put it in the hands of the people. I have no problem with that. Why should you?

I have a problem with it with the only voice public employees have is via their union representation. And judging by what Gov. Walker has done to date, it's pretty obvious he wants to silence that voice, thereby, giving public employees no say in salaries, wages, employee benefits, holiday time off (paid or unpaid) and a host of other issues that ARE afforded private sector employees. Imagine if you will state legislators voting themselves pay increases or changing their benefit packages WITHOUT the confidence of the people they represent - the voters? It happens all the time even in the U.S. Congress, but how many voters know about it in a timely fashion to say anything about, for or against? Now, imagine this same thing happening (staying with the example of state legislators) in hard economic times, but legislators deny state employees a pay raise. They get one, but state employees don't...and the reason given, "it's the economy...our budget can't afford a pay increase".

You see, this is EXACTLY what happened in my state three years ago, but very few people across the state knew anything about it until word leaked out the next time the legislature tried to vote themselves another pay raise. This time, people all across the state complained and not surprisingly, the vote failed. Now, while this wasn't a union issue, the larger point I'm trying to address is if left up to the legislators they won't have the interest of the state employee in mind; they'll have their own agenda. The ONLY way to make this process fair is to insist that pay raises or any other benefit afforded to state legislators is tied to state employees. In short, if they vote themselves a pay raise, ALL state employees should get one as well. Since WE ALL work for the People and our income is taxpayer funded. No free rides, but TOTAL fairness as well. Better yet, put the vote to the People. If they believe public servants are doing a good enough job to warrant a pay raise, their vote will determine such.


Your list of what was being asked of state employees got my goat. It's being asked of everyone. No one is singling out the public sector. People who work for state governments and have defined benefit pension plans have a different world view because they live in a different world. Their pensions are far and away more generous than the private sector employees who have to pay for them.

Again, I'd like to see some evidence of this, but even IF that's the case, such can be brought back into balance WITHOUT silencing the voices of the few advocates public servants have within their state governments. Using a state's financies woes as an excuse to disband unions for public employees is nothing more than a ploy. Attack the real problem with real solutions, not trumped up BS.
 
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Well, well, well, I knew there was a reason that I didn't respond to you in the past. I used poor judgment and decided to give you another chance. Looks like I was wrong.

Amazing that this is still about you keeping more of what you earn and I am the only one defending it. Your lack of economic understanding is staggering. Obviously you don't understand that tax cuts mean more take home pay and less need for all that govt. help that you want to promote. I certainly hope that you are sending your tax cuts back since apparently the govt. needs the money more than you do.

For someone that claims to have served in the military you sure have a distorted view of the U.S. Economy and what drives it. Doubt seriously that you did indeed serve but that is irrelevant. Figure out the components of GDP and get back to me. Then you might be able to figure out how tax cuts and tax increases affect economic growth. The word incentive doesn't seem to exist in the liberal world.

Please stop with the references to tax cuts and GDP. That's not what this thread is about. Save that for another thread.
 
Very well then...

Although not a mod, can we try sticking to the subject at hand, please? I really detest when threads purposely get derailed...makes following the subject matter rather difficult.

(I'll take the demerit. Back to the thread...)

Just found this article concerning GOP governors rethinking their approach to public employee unions. It's very evident this isn't a sigular state issue. If it were, I'd probably have alittle bit more sympathy for Wisconsin. But it's not. It's like what AZ did in pushing for immigration reform. Once one GOP state started in a particular issue, it seems every other state with a Republican governor has strived to take up the same mantle. IMO, it's good they're rethinking the issue. Otherwise, I'm afraid a domino effect would insue and every state who tried this tactic would see the exact same counter-tactic tried (re: Wisconsin Dems walking out; it's already happened in Indiana) and state employees banning together to demonstrate. You think things got bad in Greece! GOP...keep trying to silence folks in this way and this country WILL see many more of its citizens rise up and exercise their right to peacefully assemble and have their voices heard!!!
 
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"Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker has been punk'd, his office confirmed Wednesday. The Republican governor who is pushing legislation that would end collective bargaining for public employees was at the wrong end of a prank telephone call with a person he believed was David Koch, a conservative billionaire businessman.

In reality, the caller was Ian Murphy, a blogger from Buffalo, N.Y.

Koch and his brother, Charles, own Koch Industries, the largest privately owned company in America and one with significant operations in Wisconsin. Its political-action committee gave $43,000 to Walker's campaign, and David Koch gave $1 million to the Republican Governors Association, which funded ads attacking Walker's opponent in last year's election.

The Kochs also give millions to support Americans For Prosperity, a conservative business group that launched a $320,000 television ad campaign in favor of Walker's legislation Wednesday.

Posing as David Koch, Murphy makes inflammatory statements on unions and Democrats. Walker says Wisconsin is at the vanguard of a set of states in which conservative governors are battling with workers over union rights. Walker agrees with the impersonator that Wisconsin is the "first domino."

"This is our moment," he says on the recording.

Walker also explains potential tactics for breaking the deadlock, including trying to lure Democratic senators who fled the state back to the Capitol to negotiate and then pushing the bill through while Republicans have the quorum needed to move the measure.

"If you had heard that I was going to talk to them, that would be the only reason why," Walker says on the recording.

The governor also said he planned to announce Thursday that state workers would start receiving notices that they're at risk for layoff. Walker says 5,000 to 6,000 such notices could be sent.

At the end of the call, the prankster says: "I'll tell you what, Scott, once you crush these bastards, I'll fly you out to Cali and really show you a good time."

"All right, that would be outstanding," Walker replies, adding the standoff is "all about getting our freedoms back."

Democrats seized on the recorded comments as evidence that Walker plans to go beyond budget cuts to crushing unions."
Nation & World | Prank sucks in Wisconsin governor | Seattle Times Newspaper

It is a scam that means nothing and shows unions and democrats do not have a leg to stand on.

What did Walker say that he has not said publicly?
 
Wisconsin teacher salary statistics:

Rankings
Average Teacher Salary Rank: 20th
Starting Teacher Salary Rank: 49th
Salary raise last year: 4.7%
Salary raise over 10 years: 21.5%

How do salaries grow in Wisconsin?
Starting Salary: $25,222
Average Salary: $46,390

Total Expenditures: $8,654,346,758
Teacher Expenditures: $2,638,094,048
Percent Spent on Teachers: 30%"
Wisconsin Teacher Salary | Teaching Salaries in WI: $46,390


"Public school teachers in Wisconsin earned a combined $75,587 in total average compensation – wages and benefits – in 2010, according to figures from the Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction"

Wisconsin Teachers Earned Average $75,587 in Total Compensation in 2010 | CNSnews.com

Why again is this extravagant for a professional with 4 - 8 years of college doing one of the most important jobs in the country?

If you include the money the state pays for the pension fund and health insurance the salary would be much higher

Liberals and union try to deceive us on this the truth is they are much better off than than the average person in Wisconsin and get 3 months a year vacation
 
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If you include the money the state pays for the pension fund and health insurance the salary would be much higher

I think that is what is meant by "wages and benefits" in the post you quoted.

Liberals and union try to deceive us on this the truth is they are much better off than than the average person in Wisconsin and get 3 months a year vacation

Do you have evidence that similarly educated people in the private sector are not paid more than those in the public sector?
 
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I think that is what is meant by "wages and benefits" in the post you quoted.



Do you have evidence that similarly educated people in the private sector are not paid more than those in the public sector?

What difference does it make? People are standing in line to be teachers. Let the market speak there like it does everywhere else. There is no direct comparison to the private sector -- OH!!! Unless you want to use private schools. And, historically, those salaries have been lower than those in public schools. So let's use those.
 
I’ll just address the meat of this rambling, almost incoherent post. Taxpayers PAY WAGES of public employees, for services performed. If taxpayers were funding unions,people that had a hard on against unions(such as yourself) would have been lining up for the last hindered years filing court cases against their money funding unions. End of story,have a good day conservative.::2wave:

They have that is why there are right to work states where you can not be forced to join a union or be forced to pay union dues against your will
 
I would be interested to see if you have any documentation that shows that $75,000, which includes their benefits, is out of line with the average worker with 4 - 8 years of college.
Or is this just your feeling?

How about just the average wage for people in Wisconsin. Most people do not get free insurance and pension plan
 
How about just the average wage for people in Wisconsin. Most people do not get free insurance and pension plan

Maybe they should. How about a single payer system. ;)



Just saying . . . . :coffeepap
 
I think that is what is meant by "wages and benefits" in the post you quoted.



Do you have evidence that similarly educated people in the private sector are not paid more than those in the public sector?

Why similar educated. Is that who is paying their wages. How about the average for the state they get paid from.
 
What difference does it make? People are standing in line to be teachers. Let the market speak there like it does everywhere else. There is no direct comparison to the private sector -- OH!!! Unless you want to use private schools. And, historically, those salaries have been lower than those in public schools. So let's use those.

yes...let's continue our race to the bottom. when salaries fall for public school teachers, they will fall for private school teachers. then who do you think will be standing in line to teach our children?
 
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