Page 193 of 201 FirstFirst ... 93143183191192193194195 ... LastLast
Results 1,921 to 1,930 of 2002

Thread: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

  1. #1921
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    [QUOTE=ElijahGalt;1059324362]
    You have just named three major differences that private schools offer as an alternative to public schools. First of all, small class sizes are a good thing. If a private company is over flooded with an excess number of students, they have the capability and power to build another school. Second, I believe we've already agreed that bad behavior should no tbe tolerated anywhere, regardless of public or private affiliations. There's no changes in the private sector necessary to meet this standard. If you would like to see public schools discriminating against bad behavior, then you'll need to take the issue up with your local bureaucrats. But both of have agreed in the past that discriminating against bad behavior is a step in the right direction, and if students refuse to learn than so be it. Finally, more parental involvement in the education of students is quite positive. It is, after all, the parent's child and not the schools.
    Yes, difference that can't be in the public school, and not especially desirable differences. Without public schools, these child would be left out. And yes, parental involvement is desirable a great thing. However, we will never have all parents involved, so do we leave those students (or maybe blame the teachers)?

    It is the case in my district. But again, what is the ultimate outcome you'd like to see? You don't like it when private schools are able to expel misbehaving children and you've noted in the past that you don't like it when public schools are forced to keep such students, so what is the ultimate outcome you wish to see? You seem to be applying a double standard.
    Like it? No, I'm OK with it, but it is a major difference, and contributes to the numbers you think proves private schools teach better.

    I'd like see more effort put into fixing public schools, and not just abandoning them. I'd like parents to rally and put their effort in to helping those schools aready there to improve education for all. The private school silver bullet is simply not going to fix very much.



    You said "I believe" and belief is the basis of faith, not knowledge.
    Not how I see it. If I look at data, use experience, and reach a conclusion, coming to believe something, I'm not exercising faith.


    That's horrible, but ultimately it is the right of parents to decide where their kid will be taught. I'm all for integration but forced integration and forced busing hasn't led to any major improvements in the education system.
    Maybe not, but then again, it was never the only issue.


    Then perhaps you should take a look at the study, yourself. The book is called The Beautiful Tree by James Tooley. And PS, the public school system in the countries where the study was conducted had horrible rates of attrition and achievement. The problem isn't bad schools giving phony grades, but rather bad schools tolerating bad habits (i.e. allowing teachers to read a newspaper and/or sleep while the children do busy work). And again, it is the right of parents to send their children to whatever school they deem is appropriate. If stupid parents wish to send their kids to a diploma mill, then we must let them. School choice must triumph over imposed slavery.
    I will look that up this weekend. But as a parent who visited the classrooms his kids were in, I don't think teachers are the major problem in US. They are just the ones who have been scapegoated. Maybe you shoudl look up this book:

    Diane Ravitch, The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice Are Undermining Education (New York: Basic Books, 2010).
    Diane Ravitch Website

    And I wonder who was behind such a study. That's pretty condescending and elitist, if you ask me. You're implying teachers and administrators know what's best for a child more so than their own parents.
    It was a poll. They asked parents questions (not sure that makes anyone elitist or condesending). But, I'll said I would look for it later, and I did. Here it is:

    Public Opinion and Education Policy - C-SPAN Video Library

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #1922
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Last Seen
    05-16-15 @ 02:32 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    12,537

    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes, difference that can't be in the public school, and not especially desirable differences.
    Without public schools, these child would be left out.
    And yes, parental involvement is desirable a great thing.
    (not sure that makes anyone elitist or condesending).
    But, I'll said I would look for it later, and I did.
    Like us, other factors here effected our budget.
    So you're claim falls under the causal relationship error.
    Iraqis were largely killed by Iraqis, us merely the referee.
    dept chair, huh?

    LOL!

  3. #1923
    Sage

    Donc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    out yonder
    Last Seen
    12-06-17 @ 09:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    9,426

    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

  4. #1924
    Disappointed Evolutionist
    Catawba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-28-13 @ 08:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    27,254

    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    The statistics that reveal most private and charter schools are very open to accepting students regardless of their ability to pay or their overall GPA. Just take a look at the thousands of different Internet schools and independent study groups that have flourished over the years. Their entire existence is based on reaching out to kids to need a little extra help or need an alternative based education and then tailoring the learning process to fit their individual needs and wants. By golly, it's been going on for decades. When my father kept dropping out of school and doing poorly on his exams, the school board gave him a choice. He could straighten out his school career at the public school immediately or he can enroll himself into an alternative, vocation-based technical school. He chose to learn to fly airplanes and almost received his pilot license. Of course, he ended up taking a completely different path as a nurse anesthetist in the Air-Force but his example just goes to prove my point. There are other options. I've been to two different high schools in extremely different parts of the country. Both had a system where troubled and under-performing youths could find an alternative at a technical school and immediately begin to learn a trade while simultaneously finishing their high school degree. I almost felt jealous of my friends who were learning carpentry and masonry while I was stuck learning theoretical concepts.
    I went to a great public technical school as well. Not sure what your point is.



    What does that have anything to do with it? Some of the absolute best high schools in our history were all-black private schools that served the African-American community who were excluded from the mainstream public schools. Some of the absolute best colleges and universities to date are HBCUs. Are you suggesting a person's ethnicity has an immediate effect on their learning capabilities?
    I am just citing the facts:

    "An achievement gap separating black from white students has long been documented — a social divide extremely vexing to policy makers and the target of one blast of school reform after another."

    "Black mothers have a higher infant mortality rate and black children are twice as likely as whites to live in a home where no parent has a job."

    “There’s accumulating evidence that there are racial differences in what kids experience before the first day of kindergarten,” said Ronald Ferguson, director of the Achievement Gap Initiative at Harvard. “They have to do with a lot of sociological and historical forces. In order to address those, we have to be able to have conversations that people are unwilling to have.”

    Those include “conversations about early childhood parenting practices,” Dr. Ferguson said. “The activities that parents conduct with their 2-, 3- and 4-year-olds. How much we talk to them, the ways we talk to them, the ways we enforce discipline, the ways we encourage them to think and develop a sense of autonomy.”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/09/education/09gap.html



    I really don't know the answer to that question, but I can't imagine they would turn students down simply for a learning disability. Learning disabilities are a fairly newly discovered phenomenon and people in my grandfather's generation never really understood or acknowledged such conditions. The answer today is just to drug the kids and turn them into zombies. Or, the learning staff and parents can take the more difficult method of patiently spending more time and energy tutoring them. With such a small teacher-to-student ratio, such extended tutoring is quite possible.
    Unlike public schools, private schools do not have to take in everyone like public schools do today. In public schools they have to deal with not only the exceptional student, but the special needs kids, and a large population of kids from poor socio-economic backgrounds. In other words they have to meet few of the constraints that public schools have to contend with.

    Generally small as they should be.
    Just as they could be in public school with more teachers.

    The difference between private and public schools is that the private schools have all the freedom in the world to build as many educational centers as humanely possible. The public schools are extremely restricted in the manner of constructing new schools. They'll overspend their budget to produce lavish buildings filled with administrators and empty departments with a shortage of teaching staff, but they're bureaucrats! What do you expect? The major difference is the amount of money wasted in the public school as opposed to the amount of money wisely utilized in a private school
    .

    There is no proof that a private system serving all children would be any better and Education is too important to the country to leave it to the private sector control.

    Of course they were! My grandfather, as much of a stern liberal democrat he is, can thank private charity 100% for his wonderful and empowering primary and secondary education.
    Which charity has agreed to take on the education of all children? You just want others to take the responsibility from you.


    Underfunded?! We've doubled the amount spent per pupil (AFTER adjusting for inflation) over the past twenty years and we've seen nothing but flat line results. When we're spending, on average, close to 12 thousand dollars per public school student with no real results, I'd say you're going to have to qualify your use of the term "underfunded." Little private schools in the deepest part of an inner-city will spend a third of what the general public school spends per pupil and will get twice or triple the level of performance results.
    Because they don't have to take in everyone and they have more teachers per number of pupils.



    Bull****. It is completely based on the wealth of the parents. If you're wealthy, you can send your child anywhere you want, either by spending twice for their eduction (once in taxes for an education they don't receive and second in tuition for the education they do receive), or by moving your entire family to an area with a higher-performing public school. If you're middle class or working class, you're screwed. Your zip code will dictate your child's education. I don't believe that is fair.
    In Virginia, if you can prove the public school does not meet your child's needs, you can apply for government funds to send him to a special school.


    You're missing the tremendous benefits of being a teacher. It is a privilege to be a teacher or a professor. This profession, more so than other in this nation, has the ability to shape the entire personality of the next generation. It's not easy, but the rewards are very fulfilling. This is why some of the best teachers are found in private schools that happen to pay them less than public schools and who don't offer them tenure. Despite the lower pay and the fear of competition, these remarkable teachers live to teach. Since a large portion of WI kids in the public schools are currently on leave because their teachers care more about their pay and their tenure than they do about teaching, we can see who possesses the genuine passion for teaching.
    So your feeling one of the most important jobs in the country should be filled by charity, from those just wanting to help people without being paid more than a ditch digger?
    To most of us, education is s much higher priority than digging ditches.

    And your expectation that educated teachers ought not to be paid any less than a college educated professional in any other field is absolutely ludicrous. Take a citizen with a degree in soft science philosophical pondering like sociology and compare him to a citizen with a degree in hard science engineering or mathematics. You honestly believe a person with a bachelor's degree in sociology should automatically receive the same or near-equal pay of a person with a bachelor's degree in civil engineering? Heck, I don't even think a person with a PhD in sociology has the same entitlement to the salary of a person with a bachelor's in civil engineering. They both have very radically different backgrounds and skills. These skills produce very radically different results of invention and innovation. Just because a student sat in class for four extra years and wrote a dissertation does not automatically entitle him or her to the wages of an equally educated student. Degrees produce different real results and your idea stems from the equalization of education and wages.
    If you want a ditch digger to teach your children, no one is stopping you. I take the realistic approach that teaching is one of the most important and difficult jobs in the country, and education is too damn important to this country to leave to just anyone.

    That is NOT a straw man. Let me quote what you said: " I don't expect a teacher...to be paid less than a college educated professional would be paid in any other field."
    That is exactly right because I do not expect something for nothing.

    You're proposing the equalization of education and wages. It's no different than claiming ALL citizens with a certain kind of degree (be it a high school diploma, bachelor's degree or PhD) must be paid the same wages regardless of their job, their skills, or the specific degree they pursued. That's a very socialistic tendency, don't you think?
    No, you are the one arguing they should all be paid the same. I am saying the teaching profession deserves the pay it earns. I'm not looking for charity to take on my responsibilities.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  5. #1925
    Pragmatic Idealist
    upsideguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Rocky Mtn. High
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    10,066

    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You seem reasonable and not the typical liberal so how about answering the question as to what you feel is the "fair share" that the rich should pay? From the IRS data here is what we have right now

    This relates to Federal Income taxes as that is the role of the IRS

    The top 1% of wage earners make 20% of all income and pay 38% of all taxes.
    The top 5% of wage earners make 34.7% of all income and pay 58.7% of all taxes.
    The top 10% of wage earners make 45.8% of all income and pay 69.9% of all taxes.

    The bottom 50% make 12.8% of all income and pay 2.7% of all taxes.

    Currently approximately 47% of all Americans pay nothing and actually get money back making their tax rate negative.

    Do you believe it is fair for 47% of the people NOT to pay any Federal Income tax? 38% of all Federal Income taxes come from the rich so apparently that isn't a fair share? Zero percent paid by income earners below 50,000 is fair?
    No, its not fair, but not for the reasons you think.

    Yes, I am reasonable. I am not a party shill. I do have my own philosophies about things. When it comes to taxes, I am afraid you have picked an area where I am more liberal than the average democrat. So, with that to level set you......

    I believe strongly in a progressive tax system. I also believe income taxes should be focused on discretionary income, not total income. Since not everyone with income will have discretionary income, there will be large segments of the population that pay no income tax. Moreover, with a progressive tax system, there will not be even distribution of amongst the population.

    I don't buy the distinction that 47% pay no federal income tax. While I am not arguing the fact, I am arguing the de facto reality. Everyone pays payroll taxes, which we have just co-mingled with all of the other taxes. There is really no distinction as the dollars paid for payroll taxes are given to the federal government to for general operating expenses. Therefore, I argue, on a de facto basis, that all wage earners (except those that are beneficiaries of the earned income tax credit) are income tax-payers. Unfortunately, the government has increasingly relied on payroll taxes to fund its day to day life. This is the injustice.

    Numbers_Figure-2_What-are-federal-govt-sources-of-revenue_1.jpg


    People do not draw the distinction on how taxes are used. To most people, taxes are taxes. I doubt many could tell you what service was really derived from what tax. The gripe with taxes is generally about the tax burden, not about the particular form of taxation. I think worrying too much about who pays income taxes vs. payroll taxes is moot. In fact, on an marginal tax basis, the highest tax rate actually extends well down into the middle class levels. A single tax payer with $82K in taxable income enters the 28% bracket, yet is still paying 7.65% FICA, for a marginal rate of 35.65%. The single guy in the highest tax bracket, at $374,000 of taxable income is at 36.45% (35% plus 1.45%) and the guy making only $34,000 is at 32.65% (25% plus 7.65%)... this is another injustice.

    2010 tax bracket rates

    I actually think the progressive system isn't progressive enough. Payroll taxes and most other forms of taxation are not progressive at all. These are the taxes that workers pay. Now, if payroll taxes were really collected on the current needs of social security and medicare and not co-mingled and if corporations paid their fair share of taxes, I might have more understanding of your position. But, the reality is the tax burden, on an individual pain basis, is falling disproportionately on those least able to pay.

    When it comes to income taxes, Conservative, I am very liberal. I frankly think we should be taxing all wages > $1.0M at 50% or better. We should be putting in place mechanisms which incent companies to take money out of the business to pay executives in favor of incentives to re-invest in the business. A stiff upper tax rate does that. Business owners should make their money on capital gains, not high salaries. This current tax structure is leading to the economic bifurcation of America, which IMHO, is the single largest security threat to this nation that we have. When an economy does not work for the average citizen, the economy and thus nation will not stand.

    My core philosophy on government and taxation is that government is the administrative arm of a society, and its policies should be reflective of the mores and values of its people. As we are a nation largely comprised of Christians and we Christians have an inherent sense of charity, and since that charity has cost, government has cost. Who pays? Well, I would follow Christ's words of Luke 12:48 "...For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required..."

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...12&version=NIV
    Last edited by upsideguy; 03-06-11 at 07:33 PM.

  6. #1926
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:06 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,698

    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    The Hill reports that the tea party types are worried



    A new email soliciting donations from the Tea Party Express and Our Country Deserves sent out Saturday says that recent polls and an ad campaign by pro-labor groups are getting the upper hand and that conservatives backing Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker's (R) bill to roll back collective bargaining rights are starting to cede ground. "Friends, new polls coming out in Wisconsin show that the Obama-Labor Union ad campaign against him is having an impact," the e-mail says. "Governor Walker has started losing ground, even though polls had previously shown him winning the "public relations war."

    The ad warns that there will be a national ripple effect if Walker's effort actually does lose in Wisconsin. "If we lose in Wisconsin then Republican Governors across America will take the lesson that they should give in and capitulate, and all the progress we have seen from the tea party movement will be undone," the e-mail continues.
    On the one hand, all political types use events like this to raise money so why should the tea party be any different? But on the other hand, the tone and message is clearly one of possible impending defeat. Lets hope they are reading the tea leaves correctly.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  7. #1927
    Mr. Professional
    Mensch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Last Seen
    08-24-17 @ 04:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    3,666
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    [QUOTE=Boo Radley;1059325879]
    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post

    Yes, difference that can't be in the public school, and not especially desirable differences. Without public schools, these child would be left out. And yes, parental involvement is desirable a great thing. However, we will never have all parents involved, so do we leave those students (or maybe blame the teachers)?
    Explain why smaller class sizes, zero tolerance toward violence and misbehavior, and greater parental involvement are not "especially desirable differences." And another thing- you're misconstruing my positions. I do not support the elimination of public schools but rather championing for greater free choice and liberalization. We can't have all parents involved because this isn't a perfect world. But currently, the parents who wish to choose an alternative education for their child are left absolutely hopeless without the proper monetary resources. We can give these parents what they desire through greater empowerment. Have you been reading up on the parent trigger laws? I suppose you're against them.

    Like it? No, I'm OK with it, but it is a major difference, and contributes to the numbers you think proves private schools teach better.
    We both have passed agreed that violence and illegal behavior must never be tolerated in a school setting, regardless of public or private affiliation. You expressed contempt for the fact that public school are forced to retain such students (some are, and other districts offer alternative options), and you have even gone so far as to support the repeal of truancy laws in order to help this proposal succeed. Very few of your colleagues agree with you on this position, I imagine. But it is one of the few places where we can agree.

    I'd like see more effort put into fixing public schools, and not just abandoning them. I'd like parents to rally and put their effort in to helping those schools aready there to improve education for all. The private school silver bullet is simply not going to fix very much.
    I have asked you repeatedly to define "fixing public schools" and your only past responses have been very vague generalizations of what we 'could' do to raise the respect of teachers and schools and to reduce waste. I believe your idea of "fixing" is merely throwing more money at the problem. You don't seem to support any sort of reform in the way schools and parents account for the behavior and success of teachers. As I recall, you gave teachers VERY LITTLE responsibility in the actual performance results of the classroom, indicating you believe teachers are never failing in their endeavors and only maintain a microscopic efect (if that) on the overall success of the students. Very few spectators would agree with such sentiments.

    And again, I do not see private schools as the silver bullet solution. Instead, I support greater liberalization of education because I TRULY believe education is an individual pursuit and it requires an especially tailored learning process, regardless of the ability or intelligence of the student. It is also moral, in my opinion, to give parents and children the freedom to choose their own learning institutions and to retain some control over their own learning methods.

    I will look that up this weekend. But as a parent who visited the classrooms his kids were in, I don't think teachers are the major problem in US. They are just the ones who have been scapegoated.
    I hold administrators and politicians more responsible for the current problems facing America. Teachers do share a portion of the responsibility, but of course you seem to believe teachers are somehow absolved of ALL performance matters.

    Maybe you shoudl look up this book:

    Diane Ravitch, The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice Are Undermining Education (New York: Basic Books, 2010).
    Diane Ravitch Website
    You've pretty much brought up every argument piece that Ravitch has stated. Some of it I can agree with, like the failure of NCLB. However, she specifically criticizes testing and choice as undermining education. She goes on to discuss the testing aspect, which I tend to sympathize in some parts. But she never mentions the reasons why free choice is undermining education. I even scoured the Internet for articles written by her and I found one published in the Wall Street Journal. Again, she says nothing about choice but only focuses on the testing.

    It was a poll. They asked parents questions (not sure that makes anyone elitist or condesending). But, I'll said I would look for it later, and I did. Here it is:

    Public Opinion and Education Policy - C-SPAN Video Library
    Imagine that! An inconclusive poll with contradicting responses. Who would have figured?

  8. #1928
    Mr. Professional
    Mensch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Last Seen
    08-24-17 @ 04:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    3,666
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I went to a great public technical school as well. Not sure what your point is.
    The point is, when students and parents have greater options and greater freedom, the success rate is always a bit higher than the status quo. We should be giving students more of these open avenues to retain some sort of education regardless of standardization rules.

    I am just citing the facts:

    "An achievement gap separating black from white students has long been documented — a social divide extremely vexing to policy makers and the target of one blast of school reform after another."

    "Black mothers have a higher infant mortality rate and black children are twice as likely as whites to live in a home where no parent has a job."

    “There’s accumulating evidence that there are racial differences in what kids experience before the first day of kindergarten,” said Ronald Ferguson, director of the Achievement Gap Initiative at Harvard. “They have to do with a lot of sociological and historical forces. In order to address those, we have to be able to have conversations that people are unwilling to have.”

    Those include “conversations about early childhood parenting practices,” Dr. Ferguson said. “The activities that parents conduct with their 2-, 3- and 4-year-olds. How much we talk to them, the ways we talk to them, the ways we enforce discipline, the ways we encourage them to think and develop a sense of autonomy.”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/09/education/09gap.html
    I have little disagreement with the above stated facts. But it has little to do with our discussion. We're not talking about creating some massive cultural improvement. This debate is not about failing parents of a certain ethnic group. This is about giving those parents who care a chance to better the lives of their children. Look, if a parent is failing to be a proper parent (regardless of ethnic background), we, as outsiders, can only hope that the children of such parents can learn essential skills on their own and develop a sustainable, prosperous life. For those children, all we can do is hope. But for the thousands of poor parents who actually do care about the future of their children but do not have the means to change their learning environment, a liberalization of education is exactly what they're looking for. I've brought it up with Boo and I'll bring it up with you. Have you been reading about the parent trigger laws in Compton and Chicago? Under your pro-status quo position, those poor parents are screwed. They have no other options. Under my position, they have choices and alternatives.

    Unlike public schools, private schools do not have to take in everyone like public schools do today. In public schools they have to deal with not only the exceptional student, but the special needs kids, and a large population of kids from poor socio-economic backgrounds. In other words they have to meet few of the constraints that public schools have to contend with.
    So, what about the special needs schools and learning institutions that were created specifically to meet the needs of such students? Are you in denial of their existence?

    Just as they could be in public school with more teachers.
    That's if you can get the politicians and bureaucrats to stop wasting money on ridiculous program and fancy buildings. In reality, however, class sizes can only be a certain size. If you see a large influx of students, you can either cram more into the classroom or you can build more classrooms and hire more teachers. Private schools have the resources and the freedom to build more classes, more schools, and hire more teachers. Do you see public schools doing any of that? No, and it's largely because they're restricted by regulation. It took two decades of overcrowding and parental complaints before the district in my town FINALLY decided to build a second school. And when they should be hiring teachers, administrators are instead building fancier buildings and hiring more administrators. While the bureaucratic structure acts like the typical bureaucratic structure, the private schools are doubling, even tripling, the number of schools and the number of teachers in a classroom.

    There is no proof that a private system serving all children would be any better and Education is too important to the country to leave it to the private sector control.
    Do you eat? Is eating an essential part of living? Yes? Yes? Ok, well do you depend on the government (or public sector) to fill your belly with nourishment? Do you depend on the public sector to put clothes on your back or a roof over your head? The vast majority of Americans depend on themselves (the private sector) to meet essential demands for food, clothing, and shelter. Why should health care or education be any different? Those who cannot afford such items (and it is truly a small minority) have charity to depend upon.

    Which charity has agreed to take on the education of all children? You just want others to take the responsibility from you.
    What? That is a ridiculous remark. Charity can afford to take on the education of children whose parents truly cannot afford education. My grandfather is a prime example. He was born the old-fashioned way, in a shotgun house at the hands of a midwife. His family had no monetary resources. They depended upon their community to serve their educational needs. A localized community is far more efficient in providing charity for those who need it as opposed to a giant national government that coddles any and all who apply for a handout. And by the way, my specific design for education would mirror the systems in Western Europe where public educational funds are tied directly to the students and it is the parents who decide the education. In the cases of Denmark or the Netherlands, rather than spending 12K per pupil per year on a grossly mismanaged school system, they instead distribute a fraction of that money to parents who then choose (from a variety of options) their child's education. Public schools in such countries are forced to compete with private schools and other public schools for the attention and funds of the parent. And such a system has had remarkable success.

    Because they don't have to take in everyone and they have more teachers per number of pupils.
    Is that all you have to say? Am I debating a broken record player?

    In Virginia, if you can prove the public school does not meet your child's needs, you can apply for government funds to send him to a special school.
    That is kind of going in my direction. And do you wish to provide any commentary for such a system?

    So your feeling one of the most important jobs in the country should be filled by charity, from those just wanting to help people without being paid more than a ditch digger?
    To most of us, education is s much higher priority than digging ditches.
    That's bull****. I'm saying that all degrees are not equal in worth and the market dictates (according to basic supply and demand) the necessary wages of a certain occupation. I highly praise those who live to teach, and such individuals are usually found in private or independent schools. Just look at my comparison. You have one teacher in a public school getting paid fabulous wages compared to his private school counterpart, fabulous benefits (which they certainly are), and union protection. When any of those things are questioned or called under review, the teacher goes on strike and the students are left without a teacher. Where are all the underpaid private school teachers in this fiasco? They're still in their classrooms teaching kids because that is what they live to do.

    If you want a ditch digger to teach your children, no one is stopping you. I take the realistic approach that teaching is one of the most important and difficult jobs in the country, and education is too damn important to this country to leave to just anyone.
    Your approach is not realistic, it is simply status quo. And your comments comparing teachers to ditch diggers is incredibly condescending. I, too, agree that teaching is one of the most important and (in some cases) one of the more difficult jobs in this country. But even those circumstances do not necessarily warrant a six-figure salary.

    I'll ask you straight out, do you believe an individual with a bachelor's degree in engineering should be paid exactly the same (let's control for experience) as an individual with a bachelor's degree in sociology?

    No, you are the one arguing they should all be paid the same. I am saying the teaching profession deserves the pay it earns. I'm not looking for charity to take on my responsibilities.
    When did I ever say they should ll be paid the same? THAT is EXACTLY what you said regarding educational backgrounds. And being that you view your own standards as supreme over the standards of the entire world, what (in your kingdom of kingdoms) kind of teaching salary would you dictate? I'm not looking for charity to take on my responsibility, either. All I've said was that charitable organizations have the capability to take on the educational responsibilities of the small minority of people who cannot truly afford an education for their children. And I'm right, just based on observations regarding other essential demands and needs like food, clothing, and shelter.
    Last edited by Mensch; 03-06-11 at 08:37 PM.

  9. #1929
    Mr. Professional
    Mensch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Last Seen
    08-24-17 @ 04:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    3,666
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    For Boo and Catawba:


  10. #1930
    Sage
    pbrauer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Oregon
    Last Seen
    11-27-15 @ 03:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    25,394

    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    For Boo and Catawba:

    A dissenting opinion on the parent trigger:

    The Answer Sheet - The 'Parent Trigger' doesn't help schools or parents
    ...The “parent trigger” law, however, does not provide any incentive to either schools or parents to engage together in this kind of organizing. It encourages a polarizing strategy of “us” versus “them.” As is happening in Compton, it is also pitting parents against other parents as many are now withdrawing their signatures from the petition.

    Finally, it provides a huge incentive to charter school operators to parachute into communities and engage in what community organizers call “slash and burn” organizing. When unions organize in a hostile workplace, it’s essential to work “under the radar.” ...


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •