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Thread: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

  1. #1851
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    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane View Post
    Ed Schultz was live at the protests one day, but the others largely ignore the dangerous precedent set by this "debate". These same networks played the phony tea party all day, but are real protests too "scary" for big business media conglomerates?

    CNN, FoxNews & MSNBC Ignore 100,000 Protesters

    "All three cable networks share something else in common besides their decision to ignore today’s rallies. CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News along with most other forms of media have decided that liberalprotests aren’t newsworthy. They believe that the ratings and the money are in the right, not the left. The three cable networks are corporate owned and only for the purpose of profit. They don’t care about journalism or their obligation to inform the public.

    "This is all about dollars, and the outdated notion that the most profitable way to run a cable news outlet is to be like Fox News, which is why CNN keeps hiring more and more right wingers and has hopped into bed with the Tea Party Express."

    Conspiracy Planet - Media Liars - CNN, FoxNews & MSNBC Ignore 100,000 Protesters
    NPR covered the protests as well as Walker's budget. But then again, NPR is a way better news source than any of those mentioned.
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

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    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    cpb is on the republican chop block

    in times like these many americans are convinced uncle sam just can't afford big bird

    and the juan williams fiasco definitely hurt

    i'll keep you apprised as things develop

    stay up

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    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    cpb is on the republican chop block

    in times like these many americans are convinced uncle sam just can't afford big bird

    and the juan williams fiasco definitely hurt

    i'll keep you apprised as things develop

    stay up
    Hurt who? Based on whose opinion? What are you talking about?
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

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    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Not sure I understand your point here. Private sector pay with equivalent education is already at or above that of teachers. How low do you think it is possible to drive teachers compensation for their services and still attract quality people into the profession?
    Quite frankly, I'd favor more attractive compensation when possible, including performance-based rewards for teachers, to permit states and localities to recruit and retain as highly effective a group of teachers as possible. Education is an investment. It produces a highly educated workforce. A highly educated workforce produces in long-term economic benefits that flow from greater competitiveness/productivity, including higher tax revenue than would otherwise be the case.

    IMO, to the greatest extent possible, budget cuts should be focused on areas that are not investments e.g., don't produce long-term benefits. After all, a dollar of "savings" achieved from reducing education expenditures might be partially or completely offset by the long-term costs associated with a less educated, less competitive future workforce. In an increasingly knowledge-based economy, those long-term costs associated with a lack of competitiveness are growing. Unfortunately, the way governments typically handle fiscal issues is to treat a dollar of expenditures (consumption or investments) as identical, even as the investments yield long-term benefits, while consumption does not.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 03-02-11 at 07:05 PM.

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    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Quite frankly, I'd favor more attractive compensation when possible, including performance-based rewards for teachers, to permit states and localities to recruit and retain as highly effective a group of teachers as possible. Education is an investment. It produces a highly educated workforce. A highly educated workforce produces in long-term economic benefits that flow from greater competitiveness/productivity, including higher tax revenue than would otherwise be the case.
    I'm with you here!

    IMO, to the greatest extent possible, budget cuts should be focused on areas that are not investments e.g., don't produce long-term benefits. After all, a dollar of "savings" achieved from reducing education expenditures might be partially or completely offset by the long-term costs associated with a less educated, less competitive future workforce. In an increasingly knowledge-based economy, those long-term costs associated with a lack of competitiveness are growing. Unfortunately, the way governments typically handle fiscal issues is to treat a dollar of expenditures (consumption or investments) as identical, even as the investments yield long-term benefits, while consumption does not.
    I agree, there are areas where improvements can be made. I know one of the reasons private schools have fared better is a lower student to teacher ratio. I think that is one area where we can improve our public schools as well. What specific areas do you see that need improvement?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane View Post
    Whatever happened to UFO -CIA???
    "The emergence of open class conflict is exposing myths propagated by the political establishment. Among these is the supposed mass support for the “Tea Party.” Largely a media creation, fueled by millions of dollars from corporate billionaires, the Tea Party backers of Governor Walker could muster no more than a small crowd of demoralized supporters in Madison Saturday."

    "Not only do the Democrats support the destruction of the living conditions of the working class, they also have no more interest in the democratic rights of workers than the Republicans. Their aim is not to defend the right of workers to organize and fight against the corporations; but to maintain a union apparatus that has proven to be a crucial instrument in suppressing working class struggles and enforcing cuts. Indeed, Democratic governors in states like New York and California are relying on the unions precisely for this purpose."

    The struggle of Wisconsin workers enters a new stage
    It seems to me, Obama has 4 ways of supporting his voting base while he's been in office.

    1. Check which way the wind is blowing.
    2. Keeps his mouth shut.
    3. Tepid lip service support.
    4. Has underlings make excuses for him.

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    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I'm with you here!



    I agree, there are areas where improvements can be made. I know one of the reasons private schools have fared better is a lower student to teacher ratio. I think that is one area where we can improve our public schools as well. What specific areas do you see that need improvement?
    Class size is a red herring used by the teachers' union to increase the number of teachers and swell union coffers. A recent Harvard study of mandated smaller class size in Florida dispells this untruth:


    Florida’s Class-Size Reduction Mandate Did Not Improve Student Achievement, According to Harvard University Study

    CAMBRIDGE, MA – A new study finds that Florida’s 2002 constitutional amendment mandating a reduction in the size of classes in school districts throughout the state had no discernible impact upon student achievement, either positive or negative.

    Florida’s constitutional amendment, which forced districts to use state funds for class reduction unless they had already reduced class sizes to an acceptable level, had no impact on average student performance. Students in schools where districts were not forced to spend their money on class size reduction improved as much on state tests as those attending schools in districts subject to the constitutional mandate. The study also found no significantly different impact on the average performance of ethnic and racial groups or between economically advantaged and disadvantaged students.
    http://www.hks.harvard.edu/pepg/PDF/...03_Chingos.pdf

    As you can see, the study also found that ethnic, racial groups, economically advantaged, as well as economically disadvantaged students were not affected by class size.

    Florida has wasted $4 billion a year on this boondoggle.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    What specific areas do you see that need improvement?
    Unfortunately, as the education field is highly complex and I haven't really looked at it in the detail necessary to offer much.

    In terms of more general matters, I suspect that setting and communicating concrete learning objectives and regularly, rigorously, and objectively measuring progress toward those outcomes using a wide range of tools and techniques can provide a picture of what's happening. Studying various teaching techniques (and different techniques might work differently with individual students due to differences among these students) and delivering more customized support tailored to each student might help. Sharing and emulating "best practices" might be helpful. Compensation structures (teachers and administrators) will need to be more closely tied to outcomes. Given the importance of an educated workforce, all levels of education (primary, secondary, higher) need to make it a renewed priority to improve outcomes among Hispanic and black students (given that they will represent a larger share of the future workforce given the demographic changes underway) and added investment toward that end will be needed. That renewed priority is not a matter of "social engineering" that some critics might claim, but a matter of growing urgency. Either the U.S. will have a more educated workforce at home or it will need to dramatically expand immigration to address challenges to its competitiveness. If current graduation trends hold, the U.S. will find itself in a weaker competitive position and that outcome would have broad adverse consequences that would, further undermine educational results and future competitiveness.

    However, improved schools/teaching is just one component of a strategy aimed at improving student learning outcomes and graduation rates. One cannot overemphasize that educators face challenges that can be more demanding than those associated with many other fields. For example, educational outcomes are not just a function of what happens in a classroom. They are also a function of what happens outside the classroom (home, community, etc.). Students coming from a lower socioeconomic background (be it with parents having lower educational attainment, lower incomes, etc.) are at a decided disadvantage to their counterparts from higher socioeconomic backgrounds. Less learning support is available at home, because parents with lesser educational attainment cannot provide the higher-level support that their more educated counterparts can. Poverty or near-poverty might lead to exposure to fewer books/fewer cultural opportunities that support learning e.g., fewer trips to museums, and less parental attention due to the greater need for parents to work more hours to meet their families' living needs, etc. A less nutritious diet can also have an adverse impact on student learning. Mitigating those barriers to learning will also have to be included in a comprehensive approach toward improved education.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 03-03-11 at 10:11 AM.

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    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Class size is a red herring used by the teachers' union to increase the number of teachers and swell union coffers. A recent Harvard study of mandated smaller class size in Florida dispells this untruth:



    http://www.hks.harvard.edu/pepg/PDF/...03_Chingos.pdf
    I suspect that the issue is not class size per se. Instead, what is done to leverage the opportunity to provide greater attention to each student in smaller classes and how the teaching pool is expanded are important considerations. If that opportunity is utilized to provide a more customized approach tailored to each student in the smaller classes, perhaps there might be positive results. However, if the teaching approach remains essentially the same despite reduced class size, opportunities for improved learning outcomes could be wasted. If the expanded pool of teachers required to provide smaller class sizes resulted in a dilution of teaching quality, there also might be no gains or even losses from such a strategy. In short, critical questions such as "what new teaching approaches were employed in the smaller classes?" and "what were the backgrounds/effectiveness of the new teachers hired to implement smaller class sizes?" probably have a lot to do with the outcome that was noted in the study. The study did not get into that level of detail, so aside from the lack of positive outcomes solely from class size reductions, understanding the reasons for that lack of progress is not possible.

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    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I suspect that the issue is not class size per se. Instead, what is done to leverage the opportunity to provide greater attention to each student in smaller classes and how the teaching pool is expanded are important considerations. If that opportunity is utilized to provide a more customized approach tailored to each student in the smaller classes, perhaps there might be positive results. However, if the teaching approach remains essentially the same despite reduced class size, opportunities for improved learning outcomes could be wasted. If the expanded pool of teachers required to provide smaller class sizes resulted in a dilution of teaching quality, there also might be no gains or even losses from such a strategy. In short, critical questions such as "what new teaching approaches were employed in the smaller classes?" and "what were the backgrounds/effectiveness of the new teachers hired to implement smaller class sizes?" probably have a lot to do with the outcome that was noted in the study. The study did not get into that level of detail, so aside from the lack of positive outcomes solely from class size reductions, understanding the reasons for that lack of progress is not possible.
    We know that Florida's experiment with smaller class sizes has been in existence for over eight years now. Surely some indication of success would be evident over that length of time.

    If small class size is so important, how does anyone in a freshman college civics course with 100 students ever learn anything or pass the course ??

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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