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Thread: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

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    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I don't know enough about these tax breaks to debate them. I know that tax breaks stimulate business and are given alllll the time. This is about asking the public sector to make the same sacrifices their private sector counterparts are making every single day.
    you 'know' that tax breaks stimulate business, or is this what you have heard? don't you think asking for concessions from one group while giving breaks to another a tad bit unfair?

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    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    you 'know' that tax breaks stimulate business, or is this what you have heard? don't you think asking for concessions from one group while asking less of another group is a tad bit unfair?
    Yes, I do. Just as I think asking those who receive no pension at all to pay for the Rolls Royce plans that public sector employees enjoy. I think that's terribly unfair. Also a tad unfair:

    Private sector unemployment: 9+%
    Public sector unemployment: 5%
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    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I don't know enough about these tax breaks to debate them. I know that tax breaks stimulate business and are given alllll the time. This is about asking the public sector to make the same sacrifices their private sector counterparts are making every single day.
    The private sector has been promised $140 million in tax breaks. First I would like to see your proof they stimulate business, and second, if the are a benefit to the state as a whole, why shouldn't the taxes on everyone be raised to pay for them? Why do you suggest trying to balance the tax cuts for one class on the backs of teachers?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Lot of pure speculation there, Haymarket. None of it has anything to do with public unions and those in Wisconsin having something that "your" President hasn't even offered to the Federal public service unions.
    Not at all as along as we remember what you said at the start of this exchange in post 1347

    Unlike you, conservatives believe it is personal responsibility to take care of yourself and to show initiative and drive thus not needing someone else to bargain for you.
    and to your statement of complete self reliance and personal responsibility and taking care of yourself I told you that

    I am willing to bet a good deal of money that you personally hire and employ people to do lots of things for you. You hire people to do things for you that you do not have the skill, education or expertise to do yourself. You hire people you need to do things for you that you cannot or will not do for yourself. You do that all the time.

    That is what workers are doing in getting a labor union to look our for their behalf. No more- no less.




    So your response completely and totally ignores your own words which produced my response.

    Why would you attempt to do that? It seems really dishonest in the extreme and completely counter to honest debate and exchange.
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    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    The private sector has been promised $140 million in tax breaks. First I would like to see your proof they stimulate business, and second, if the are a benefit to the state as a whole, why shouldn't the taxes on everyone be raised to pay for them? Why do you suggest trying to balance the tax cuts for one class on the backs of teachers?
    You'll get no proof from me because I'm not arguing that point. It's a strawman in this debate. I'm arguing that public sector workers get the finest pension plans on planet earth, that the only reason they were given those generous pensions was to buy their votes and earn union cash in the pockets of Democrats.

    In the real private-sector world, employees contribute 7.65% of wages into Social Security and Medicare. In the public sector, in Wisconsin, teachers, up 'til Governor Walker, paid NOTHING. In the real private-sector world, employees are covered by 401K's and similar defined contribution plans by a wiiiide margin. The public sector is covered by defined benefit plans to the tune of 90%.

    Under current collective bargaining agreements, Wisconsin teachers pay nothing toward their healthcare. It costs the state 38.8% of wages for the teachers' healthcare plans. In the real private-sector world, the average is 10.7%.

    Teachers in Wisconsin get free healthcare in retirement and are eligible to retire in their 50's. The state picks up their health insurance premiums as they exist at retirement, only asking the retiree to pay the increases until they're eligible for Medicare. That is almost nonexistent in the real private-sector world.

    Oh, to be a teacher in Wisconsin. Or, actually? Even better? Illinois, where I live. Robert M. Costrell: Oh, To Be a Teacher in Wisconsin - WSJ.com
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    The private sector has been promised $140 million in tax breaks. First I would like to see your proof they stimulate business, and second, if the are a benefit to the state as a whole, why shouldn't the taxes on everyone be raised to pay for them? Why do you suggest trying to balance the tax cuts for one class on the backs of teachers?
    Hell will freeze over while we all wait for that evidence.
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    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Not at all as along as we remember what you said at the start of this exchange in post 1347



    and to your statement of complete self reliance and personal responsibility and taking care of yourself I told you that

    I am willing to bet a good deal of money that you personally hire and employ people to do lots of things for you. You hire people to do things for you that you do not have the skill, education or expertise to do yourself. You hire people you need to do things for you that you cannot or will not do for yourself. You do that all the time.

    That is what workers are doing in getting a labor union to look our for their behalf. No more- no less.




    So your response completely and totally ignores your own words which produced my response.

    Why would you attempt to do that? It seems really dishonest in the extreme and completely counter to honest debate and exchange.
    So, you have a problem with a private sector employee funding someone else that creates jobs? All spending by consumers creates demand and jobs in the private sector. Public unions support the public and are paid by the public who have no collective bargaining powers over those unions. That is a conflict of interest and why FDR didn't support collective bargaining for public unions. The most pro Union President in U.S. history not supporting collective bargaining for unions! I can see why you want to ignore that

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    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    You'll get no proof from me because I'm not arguing that point. It's a strawman in this debate. I'm arguing that public sector workers get the finest pension plans on planet earth, that the only reason they were given those generous pensions was to buy their votes and earn union cash in the pockets of Democrats.

    In the real private-sector world, employees contribute 7.65% of wages into Social Security and Medicare. In the public sector, in Wisconsin, teachers, up 'til Governor Walker, paid NOTHING. In the real private-sector world, employees are covered by 401K's and similar defined contribution plans by a wiiiide margin. The public sector is covered by defined benefit plans to the tune of 90%.

    Under current collective bargaining agreements, Wisconsin teachers pay nothing toward their healthcare. It costs the state 38.8% of wages for the teachers' healthcare plans. In the real private-sector world, the average is 10.7%.

    Teachers in Wisconsin get free healthcare in retirement and are eligible to retire in their 50's. The state picks up their health insurance premiums as they exist at retirement, only asking the retiree to pay the increases until they're eligible for Medicare. That is almost nonexistent in the real private-sector world.

    Oh, to be a teacher in Wisconsin. Or, actually? Even better? Illinois, where I live. Robert M. Costrell: Oh, To Be a Teacher in Wisconsin - WSJ.com
    And you would be right Maggie that “I'm arguing that public sector workers get the finest pension plans on planet earth,

    …well maybe on planet earth is a bit of a stretch.

    Historically the public sector had to give better benefits to attract employees because of their low pay in comparison to the private sector. Not until the great recession hit that the eye of the public has focused on the benefits and the job security afforded public sector employees. AND republicans, being well schooled in roven tactics, have jumped on the bandwagon of their old nemeses the Unions.
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    i want the rest of you 'working stiffs', when you have a moment of clarity, to thank the unions for all that you have...8hr standard workday, minimum time and a half for overtime, weekends off, paid vacations, holidays such as christmas, thanksgiving.....not to mention improved health and safety rules, the 'unions' keeping the pressure on osha, which does nothing more than enforce(if that, more often a small fine) bare minimum standards, NOT THE STANDARDS THAT ARE THE MOST SAFE, the bare minimum, and they wouldnt do that without the unions holding the flame to their feet...some of you are so blind, so set in your thinking, as to belive that nothing would change if unions were to go out of existence...every day, big business is in washington, the local statehouses, to lobby to reduce worker protections, to lobby for lower safety standards, to lobby for laws to limit how and when overtime should be paid... yeah, life would suck without unions.
    And I want all the working stiffs to thank God for our businesses, entrepreneurs and capitalists who created the corporations that have made this nation the most prosperous in the world



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    Re: Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    So, you have a problem with a private sector employee funding someone else that creates jobs? All spending by consumers creates demand and jobs in the private sector. Public unions support the public and are paid by the public who have no collective bargaining powers over those unions. That is a conflict of interest and why FDR didn't support collective bargaining for public unions. The most pro Union President in U.S. history not supporting collective bargaining for unions! I can see why you want to ignore that
    Here is a helpful tip for you Conservative. When you reprint the post of someone else and they post something underneath, its an indication you are relying to the thought expressed in that previous post.

    Your post in reply to mine had nothing to do with my post at all. It was merely your excuse to say what you wanted to say without speaking to what I said. In the future, I would ask you to leave my posts out of it unless you speak directly to it.

    i have spoken directly to your FDR point time and time and time again. So have many others.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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