• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Rand Paul: End 'welfare' to Israel

jamesrage said:
I would be for shifting those troops stationed Germany and other countries to stationing them on the US border.
Click to expand...

Good idea let's do it.
 
jamesrage said:
I think mostly its to stir up the people whose mouths are on Israel's scrotum in order to peg Rand Paul as a anti-Semite. The con-artists on the Trinity Broad Casting network, the con-artist masquerading as preachers as well as certian politicians can go look he opposes funding Israel so he must hate the jews or other republicans can go he must want Israel to go the Muslims.
Click to expand...

Israel has a scrotum?
 
TurtleDude said:
a "Jew hater"

any proof of that?
Click to expand...

You need to realize WHY Pete introduces this subtext. Many of the other dogmatic Euro extreme leftists do likewise.

By doing so, they can then make the claim that other people have actually done so, and bring out their mantra in regards to "you can't say anything about Israel without being accused of antisemitism". It is all very dishonest, very predictable, and it does seem to fool many of the less intelligent posters who then join them in accusing those who haven't done so of pulling out the antisemite card.
 
jamesrage said:
Since when is ending welfare akin to isolationism?
Click to expand...

It's a step towards it. Aid is influence, and letting Israel hang out there to be pounded into extinction isn't in our best interest as a nation. I can see cutting back, or in some country's stopping it, but without sufficient influence, our nation would be relinquishing influence. Maybe you're okay with that across the board; I'm not. My view is, cut aid where it makes sense not end it, and if you want to be economically and fiscally conscious great: close down 30-40% of all overseas military bases. Good will aid to disasters etc., isn't welfare in my mind, it's charity on a national scale. In some area's like Israel, I wouldn't be in favor of cutting off their aid.
 
Ockham said:
It's a step towards it.
Click to expand...

In other words is not isolationism.

Aid is influence,
Click to expand...
It is a bribe and a handout with the hopes that they will give a **** what we say. Its like the nerd who gives the bully his lunch money in hopes that the bully does not beat him up.

and letting Israel hang out there to be pounded into extinction isn't in our best interest as a nation.
Click to expand...


Why is it not in our best interest and who is to say Israel is not capable of defending itself? Let Israel stand on its own, let them duke it out with their neighbors.

I can see cutting back, or in some country's stopping it, but without sufficient influence, our nation would be relinquishing influence.Maybe you're okay with that across the board; I'm not.
Click to expand...
Many of these countries take our money and then curse us.Not what anyone would call influence.
Yes I am okay with cutting off welfare to these countries.

My view is, cut aid where it makes sense not end it, and if you want to be economically and fiscally conscious great: close down 30-40% of all overseas military bases. Good will aid to disasters etc., isn't welfare in my mind, it's charity on a national scale. In some area's like Israel, I wouldn't be in favor of cutting off their aid.
Click to expand...

So you want to close our military bases so that we continue to give money away to other countries?
 
Last edited:
StillBallin75 said:
Two words: Posse Comitatus
Click to expand...

You are dead wrong. Putting troops on the border is not acting like the police, where the troops would arrest our own citizens. They would be there to SECURE THE BORDER. There is a huge difference.
 
washunut said:
I have no problem with getting rid of all foreign aid. That should also include military bases in places like Germany. Are we still there to stop Russian tanks. He would cut a paltry 18 billion from 600-700 defense budget. So he is just shifting money around not making the cuts we really need.

If he had said cut defense by 100-200 billion per year he would have been credible.
Click to expand...

Basing soldiers in forward operating locations makes sense for the US. It has been a stabilizing force since WW2. When our military HAS to be used, it doesnt make sense to stage them all from out of the US militarily. Numbers COULD be reduced and the defense budget can and should definitely be reviewed. The European troops provide a deterrent effect.
 
danarhea said:
You are dead wrong. Putting troops on the border is not acting like the police, where the troops would arrest our own citizens. They would be there to SECURE THE BORDER. There is a huge difference.
Click to expand...

Putting troops on the borders only makes sense if you are willing to allow them to engage people attempting to come into the country illegaly.
 
VanceMack said:
Putting troops on the borders only makes sense if you are willing to allow them to engage people attempting to come into the country illegaly.
Click to expand...

Correct. Shoot 'em. They are invaders.
 
jamesrage said:
In other words is not isolationism.
Click to expand...
It's a step towards it.


jamesrage said:
It is a bribe and a handout with the hopes that they will give a **** what we say. Its like the nerd who gives the bully his lunch money in hopes that the bully does not beat him up.
Click to expand...
Exactly. How do you think world politics and influence work?

jamesrage said:
Why is it not in our best interest and who is to say Israel is not capable of defending itself? Let Israel stand on its own, let them duke it out with their neighbors.
Click to expand...
It's been my belief and others that Israel exists today only because the U.S. supports it not only with sales of weapons, but due to a long history of agreements. And really, after 70 years of support and cooperation we'll just "let them duke it out". Yeah, that'll give the rest of the world a lot of trust and confidence in dealing with the U.S. in the future. You're kidding right?
Here's a short list of treatis and agreements regarding security between the U.S. and Israel.

  • July 23, 1952 — Agreement relating to mutual defense assistance.
    October 23, 1975 — Agreement regarding payment for tooling costs of accelerated production of M-60A1 tanks.
    April 6, 1979 — Agreement concerning construction of air base facilities.
    April 6, 1979 — Agreement concerning funding of air base facilities.
    December 10, 1982 — General security of information agreement.
    November 29, 1983 — Agreement creating the Joint Political Military Group and Joint Security Assistance Program.
    December 14, 1987 — Memorandum of Agreement concerning the principles governing mutual cooperation in research and development, scientist and engineer exchange, and procurement and logistic support of defense equipment, with annexes and attachment.
    April 21, 1988 — Memorandum of Agreement regarding joint political, security and economic cooperation.
    May 24, 1988 — Mutual logistic support agreement.
    April 1989 — Memorandum of Agreement between the Strategic Defense Initiative Organization and Israel’s Defense Ministry to develop a $35 million computer facility as part of the Arrow missile program.
    September 8, 1989 — Memorandum of Understanding regarding transfers of materials, supplies and equipment for cooperative research and development programs.
    January 22, 1991 — Agreement on the status of United States personnel.
    June 1991 — Agreement pertaining to the Arrow Continuation Experiments (ACES), the second stage of the joint U.S.-Israel Arrow missile program.
    October 18, 1991 — Memorandum of Understanding for a loan of a multi-sensor integrate system for the purpose of test and evaluation.
    November 28, 1991 — Agreement on cooperation to combat illicit narcotics trafficking and abuse.
    April 30, 1996 — Counterterrorism cooperation accord to enhance capabilities to deter, prevent, respond to and investigate international terrorist acts or threats of international terrorist acts against Israel or the United States.
    July 18, 1996 — Memorandum of Agreement concerning the tactical high energy laser (THEL) advanced concept technology demonstration (ACTD).
    April 30, 1996 — Counterterrorism cooperation accord
    September 3, 1996 — Agreement for technology research and development projects.
    January 28, 1998 — Treaty on mutual assistance in criminal matters.
    February 10, 1998 — Acquisition and cross-servicing agreement with annexes.
    January 16, 2009 — Memorandum of Understanding Between The United States and Israel Regarding Prevention of the Supply of Arms and Related Materiel to Terrorist Groups

jamesrage said:
Many of these countries take our money and then curse us.Not what anyone would call influence.
Yes I am okay with cutting off welfare to these countries.
Click to expand...
Ok identify which ones they are and I'd support cutting off their aid as well.

jamesrage said:
So you want to close our military bases so that we continue to give money away to other countries?
Click to expand...
I want to close military bases for a multitude of reasons. 1st, it costs a huge amount of spending to keep them open and running. 2nd, it's the fiscally responsible thing to do in some area's of the world, 3rd if we not going to be the worlds cop any longer and we're cutting aid - (a primary role of overseas bases is to distribute that aid) then we won't need those bases any longer. Where it makes sense, we keep some bases open. A 30-40% reduction seems appropriate. As well to your point, a reduction in SOME aid (not all) regarding identified countries who as you put it, "take our money and then curse us", may be appropriate.
 
danarhea said:
Correct. Shoot 'em. They are invaders.
Click to expand...

It would definitely stem the flow...or at least alter it. I dunno tho...how long will it take for folks here in this country to brand them murderers?
 
MrVicchio said:
Global Health and Child Survival
$7,595,000,000.00
U.S. Foreign Aid Summary


But no, let's talk Israel first.... good plan.
Click to expand...

If you look at the article in the OP Rand Paul says all foreign aid. Politco focused on the end aid to Israel in their title to deliberately paint Rand Paul as hating jews.
 
Ockham said:
It's been my belief and others that Israel exists today only because the U.S. supports it not only with sales of weapons, but due to a long history of agreements. And really, after 70 years of support and cooperation we'll just "let them duke it out". Yeah, that'll give the rest of the world a lot of trust and confidence in dealing with the U.S. in the future. You're kidding right?
Here's a short list of treatis and agreements regarding security between the U.S. and Israel.

  • July 23, 1952 — Agreement relating to mutual defense assistance.
    October 23, 1975 — Agreement regarding payment for tooling costs of accelerated production of M-60A1 tanks.
    April 6, 1979 — Agreement concerning construction of air base facilities.
    April 6, 1979 — Agreement concerning funding of air base facilities.
    December 10, 1982 — General security of information agreement.
    November 29, 1983 — Agreement creating the Joint Political Military Group and Joint Security Assistance Program.
    December 14, 1987 — Memorandum of Agreement concerning the principles governing mutual cooperation in research and development, scientist and engineer exchange, and procurement and logistic support of defense equipment, with annexes and attachment.
    April 21, 1988 — Memorandum of Agreement regarding joint political, security and economic cooperation.
    May 24, 1988 — Mutual logistic support agreement.
    April 1989 — Memorandum of Agreement between the Strategic Defense Initiative Organization and Israel’s Defense Ministry to develop a $35 million computer facility as part of the Arrow missile program.
    September 8, 1989 — Memorandum of Understanding regarding transfers of materials, supplies and equipment for cooperative research and development programs.
    January 22, 1991 — Agreement on the status of United States personnel.
    June 1991 — Agreement pertaining to the Arrow Continuation Experiments (ACES), the second stage of the joint U.S.-Israel Arrow missile program.
    October 18, 1991 — Memorandum of Understanding for a loan of a multi-sensor integrate system for the purpose of test and evaluation.
    November 28, 1991 — Agreement on cooperation to combat illicit narcotics trafficking and abuse.
    April 30, 1996 — Counterterrorism cooperation accord to enhance capabilities to deter, prevent, respond to and investigate international terrorist acts or threats of international terrorist acts against Israel or the United States.
    July 18, 1996 — Memorandum of Agreement concerning the tactical high energy laser (THEL) advanced concept technology demonstration (ACTD).
    April 30, 1996 — Counterterrorism cooperation accord
    September 3, 1996 — Agreement for technology research and development projects.
    January 28, 1998 — Treaty on mutual assistance in criminal matters.
    February 10, 1998 — Acquisition and cross-servicing agreement with annexes.
    January 16, 2009 — Memorandum of Understanding Between The United States and Israel Regarding Prevention of the Supply of Arms and Related Materiel to Terrorist Groups
Click to expand...

If we are the ones supplying Israel with money who is really paying for all those things on your list? How many of those things on that list can we do on our own or are really necessary?
 
danarhea said:
Correct. Shoot 'em. They are invaders.
Click to expand...

Just as I would expect a prison guard to shoot a prisoner attempting to escape over the walls of a prison.

Our military are not mall security police and for anyone to think otherwise would be a fool.
 
jamesrage said:
If you look at the article in the OP Rand Paul says all foreign aid. Politco focused on the end aid to Israel in their title to deliberately paint Rand Paul as hating jews.
Click to expand...

This is correct, and there is an even bigger issue that Paul is talking about - Do Republicans have the guts to make the cuts that are necessary to reduce the deficit?
 
jamesrage said:
If we are the ones supplying Israel with money who is really paying for all those things on your list? How many of those things on that list can we do on our own or are really necessary?
Click to expand...

There is plenty we can do on our own. I volunteered time for the JNF for 3 years, calling on members to donate trees and water reservoirs to Israel, and also got involved in the "Walk for Water" campaign they had. There is plenty that can be done in the private sector.
 
jamesrage said:
If we are the ones supplying Israel with money who is really paying for all those things on your list? How many of those things on that list can we do on our own or are really necessary?
Click to expand...

I don't know that we are the only ones. As far as necessary - define "necessary".... Look, talking in all or nothing terms isn't realistic. We're not going to cut off all aid everywhere, just like we won't close all overseas bases everywhere and tell the rest of the world, "Sorry boys, you're all on your own." Two World Wars taught us a few things and without country's watching over this planet with military, diplomatic or economic aid, history repeats itself. So while it would be very nice to turn the foreign policy clock back to 1901, it ain't gonna happen.
 
Things aren't always as simplistic as they seem. US financial aid to Egypt and Pakistan are exemplars, as are the 35,000 US combat troops parked in South Korea.

Returns on investment are oftentimes subtle. Mainly due to its relationship with the US, Israel does not export sophisticated military technology to nations such as China. This is the status quo understanding. I have to wonder if Mr. Paul considered anything relevant beyond a short-term-feel-good appeal.
 
Crosscheck said:
Just as I would expect a prison guard to shoot a prisoner attempting to escape over the walls of a prison.

Our military are not mall security police and for anyone to think otherwise would be a fool.
Click to expand...

Of course they are not. They are our troops, and we would use them to secure our borders. Of course, nations stationing troops at their borders, in order to secure it, must be a quaint concept to you. According to you, nations should just pull troops from their own borders, and let whoever wants to cross do so.

According to you, France does not have a right to defend it's own borders, and surrender with dignity. Oh, the humanity.
 
danarhea said:
Of course they are not. They are our troops, and we would use them to secure our borders. Of course, nations stationing troops at their borders, in order to secure it, must be a quaint concept to you. According to you, nations should just pull troops from their own borders, and let whoever wants to cross do so.

According to you, France does not have a right to defend it's own borders, and surrender with dignity. Oh, the humanity.
Click to expand...
Not quite what I was saying. I said just as a prison guard has the right to shoot a prisoner escaping so does a soldier shooting someone invading our country...........
 
Tashah said:
Things aren't always as simplistic as they seem. US financial aid to Egypt and Pakistan are exemplars, as are the 35,000 US combat troops parked in South Korea.

Returns on investment are oftentimes subtle. Mainly due to its relationship with the US, Israel does not export sophisticated military technology to nations such as China. This is the status quo understanding. I have to wonder if Mr. Paul considered anything relevant beyond a short-term-feel-good appeal.
Click to expand...

In better times, I would agree with you. But, at this time, the US must curtail it's spending, and ALL foreign aid should be on the cutting block, as well as most of our bases around the world. The Cold War has been over for many years.
 
Crosscheck said:
Not quite what I was saying. I said just as a prison guard has the right to shoot a prisoner escaping so does a soldier shooting someone invading our country...........
Click to expand...

Ahh, now I get it. The "mall security police" statement led me down a path to an incorrect assumption. Sorry about that. LOL.
 
danarhea said:
You are dead wrong. Putting troops on the border is not acting like the police, where the troops would arrest our own citizens. They would be there to SECURE THE BORDER. There is a huge difference.
Click to expand...

Explain to me how exactly you secure the border without being able to act in a law enforcement capacity? If, hypothetically, troops were stationed on the border, what exactly would they do? You can't shoot coyotes and illegals - we haven't declared a war on illegals and they aren't combatants. You can't arrest them, because that is not their job and they have no law enforcement powers. If by "secure the border" you mean securing it against a foreign invading army, it would make sense. But that's not the situation here. We are not at war with Mexico. The border is already secure in the military sense of the word.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom