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Thread: Rand Paul: End 'welfare' to Israel

  1. #31
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    Re: Rand Paul: End 'welfare' to Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    It's a step towards it.
    In other words is not isolationism.

    Aid is influence,
    It is a bribe and a handout with the hopes that they will give a **** what we say. Its like the nerd who gives the bully his lunch money in hopes that the bully does not beat him up.

    and letting Israel hang out there to be pounded into extinction isn't in our best interest as a nation.

    Why is it not in our best interest and who is to say Israel is not capable of defending itself? Let Israel stand on its own, let them duke it out with their neighbors.

    I can see cutting back, or in some country's stopping it, but without sufficient influence, our nation would be relinquishing influence.Maybe you're okay with that across the board; I'm not.
    Many of these countries take our money and then curse us.Not what anyone would call influence.
    Yes I am okay with cutting off welfare to these countries.

    My view is, cut aid where it makes sense not end it, and if you want to be economically and fiscally conscious great: close down 30-40% of all overseas military bases. Good will aid to disasters etc., isn't welfare in my mind, it's charity on a national scale. In some area's like Israel, I wouldn't be in favor of cutting off their aid.
    So you want to close our military bases so that we continue to give money away to other countries?
    Last edited by jamesrage; 02-05-11 at 12:13 PM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Rand Paul: End 'welfare' to Israel

    Global Health and Child Survival
    $7,595,000,000.00
    U.S. Foreign Aid Summary


    But no, let's talk Israel first.... good plan.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Rand Paul: End 'welfare' to Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Two words: Posse Comitatus
    You are dead wrong. Putting troops on the border is not acting like the police, where the troops would arrest our own citizens. They would be there to SECURE THE BORDER. There is a huge difference.
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    Re: Rand Paul: End 'welfare' to Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    I have no problem with getting rid of all foreign aid. That should also include military bases in places like Germany. Are we still there to stop Russian tanks. He would cut a paltry 18 billion from 600-700 defense budget. So he is just shifting money around not making the cuts we really need.

    If he had said cut defense by 100-200 billion per year he would have been credible.
    Basing soldiers in forward operating locations makes sense for the US. It has been a stabilizing force since WW2. When our military HAS to be used, it doesnt make sense to stage them all from out of the US militarily. Numbers COULD be reduced and the defense budget can and should definitely be reviewed. The European troops provide a deterrent effect.

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    Re: Rand Paul: End 'welfare' to Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    You are dead wrong. Putting troops on the border is not acting like the police, where the troops would arrest our own citizens. They would be there to SECURE THE BORDER. There is a huge difference.
    Putting troops on the borders only makes sense if you are willing to allow them to engage people attempting to come into the country illegaly.

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    Re: Rand Paul: End 'welfare' to Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Putting troops on the borders only makes sense if you are willing to allow them to engage people attempting to come into the country illegaly.
    Correct. Shoot 'em. They are invaders.
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  7. #37
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    Re: Rand Paul: End 'welfare' to Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    In other words is not isolationism.
    It's a step towards it.


    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    It is a bribe and a handout with the hopes that they will give a **** what we say. Its like the nerd who gives the bully his lunch money in hopes that the bully does not beat him up.
    Exactly. How do you think world politics and influence work?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Why is it not in our best interest and who is to say Israel is not capable of defending itself? Let Israel stand on its own, let them duke it out with their neighbors.
    It's been my belief and others that Israel exists today only because the U.S. supports it not only with sales of weapons, but due to a long history of agreements. And really, after 70 years of support and cooperation we'll just "let them duke it out". Yeah, that'll give the rest of the world a lot of trust and confidence in dealing with the U.S. in the future. You're kidding right?
    Here's a short list of treatis and agreements regarding security between the U.S. and Israel.

    • July 23, 1952 — Agreement relating to mutual defense assistance.
      October 23, 1975 — Agreement regarding payment for tooling costs of accelerated production of M-60A1 tanks.
      April 6, 1979 — Agreement concerning construction of air base facilities.
      April 6, 1979 — Agreement concerning funding of air base facilities.
      December 10, 1982 — General security of information agreement.
      November 29, 1983 — Agreement creating the Joint Political Military Group and Joint Security Assistance Program.
      December 14, 1987 — Memorandum of Agreement concerning the principles governing mutual cooperation in research and development, scientist and engineer exchange, and procurement and logistic support of defense equipment, with annexes and attachment.
      April 21, 1988 — Memorandum of Agreement regarding joint political, security and economic cooperation.
      May 24, 1988 — Mutual logistic support agreement.
      April 1989 — Memorandum of Agreement between the Strategic Defense Initiative Organization and Israel’s Defense Ministry to develop a $35 million computer facility as part of the Arrow missile program.
      September 8, 1989 — Memorandum of Understanding regarding transfers of materials, supplies and equipment for cooperative research and development programs.
      January 22, 1991 — Agreement on the status of United States personnel.
      June 1991 — Agreement pertaining to the Arrow Continuation Experiments (ACES), the second stage of the joint U.S.-Israel Arrow missile program.
      October 18, 1991 — Memorandum of Understanding for a loan of a multi-sensor integrate system for the purpose of test and evaluation.
      November 28, 1991 — Agreement on cooperation to combat illicit narcotics trafficking and abuse.
      April 30, 1996 — Counterterrorism cooperation accord to enhance capabilities to deter, prevent, respond to and investigate international terrorist acts or threats of international terrorist acts against Israel or the United States.
      July 18, 1996 — Memorandum of Agreement concerning the tactical high energy laser (THEL) advanced concept technology demonstration (ACTD).
      April 30, 1996 — Counterterrorism cooperation accord
      September 3, 1996 — Agreement for technology research and development projects.
      January 28, 1998 — Treaty on mutual assistance in criminal matters.
      February 10, 1998 — Acquisition and cross-servicing agreement with annexes.
      January 16, 2009 — Memorandum of Understanding Between The United States and Israel Regarding Prevention of the Supply of Arms and Related Materiel to Terrorist Groups


    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Many of these countries take our money and then curse us.Not what anyone would call influence.
    Yes I am okay with cutting off welfare to these countries.
    Ok identify which ones they are and I'd support cutting off their aid as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    So you want to close our military bases so that we continue to give money away to other countries?
    I want to close military bases for a multitude of reasons. 1st, it costs a huge amount of spending to keep them open and running. 2nd, it's the fiscally responsible thing to do in some area's of the world, 3rd if we not going to be the worlds cop any longer and we're cutting aid - (a primary role of overseas bases is to distribute that aid) then we won't need those bases any longer. Where it makes sense, we keep some bases open. A 30-40% reduction seems appropriate. As well to your point, a reduction in SOME aid (not all) regarding identified countries who as you put it, "take our money and then curse us", may be appropriate.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Rand Paul: End 'welfare' to Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Correct. Shoot 'em. They are invaders.
    It would definitely stem the flow...or at least alter it. I dunno tho...how long will it take for folks here in this country to brand them murderers?

  9. #39
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    Re: Rand Paul: End 'welfare' to Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Global Health and Child Survival
    $7,595,000,000.00
    U.S. Foreign Aid Summary


    But no, let's talk Israel first.... good plan.
    If you look at the article in the OP Rand Paul says all foreign aid. Politco focused on the end aid to Israel in their title to deliberately paint Rand Paul as hating jews.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  10. #40
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    Re: Rand Paul: End 'welfare' to Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post

    It's been my belief and others that Israel exists today only because the U.S. supports it not only with sales of weapons, but due to a long history of agreements. And really, after 70 years of support and cooperation we'll just "let them duke it out". Yeah, that'll give the rest of the world a lot of trust and confidence in dealing with the U.S. in the future. You're kidding right?
    Here's a short list of treatis and agreements regarding security between the U.S. and Israel.

    • July 23, 1952 — Agreement relating to mutual defense assistance.
      October 23, 1975 — Agreement regarding payment for tooling costs of accelerated production of M-60A1 tanks.
      April 6, 1979 — Agreement concerning construction of air base facilities.
      April 6, 1979 — Agreement concerning funding of air base facilities.
      December 10, 1982 — General security of information agreement.
      November 29, 1983 — Agreement creating the Joint Political Military Group and Joint Security Assistance Program.
      December 14, 1987 — Memorandum of Agreement concerning the principles governing mutual cooperation in research and development, scientist and engineer exchange, and procurement and logistic support of defense equipment, with annexes and attachment.
      April 21, 1988 — Memorandum of Agreement regarding joint political, security and economic cooperation.
      May 24, 1988 — Mutual logistic support agreement.
      April 1989 — Memorandum of Agreement between the Strategic Defense Initiative Organization and Israel’s Defense Ministry to develop a $35 million computer facility as part of the Arrow missile program.
      September 8, 1989 — Memorandum of Understanding regarding transfers of materials, supplies and equipment for cooperative research and development programs.
      January 22, 1991 — Agreement on the status of United States personnel.
      June 1991 — Agreement pertaining to the Arrow Continuation Experiments (ACES), the second stage of the joint U.S.-Israel Arrow missile program.
      October 18, 1991 — Memorandum of Understanding for a loan of a multi-sensor integrate system for the purpose of test and evaluation.
      November 28, 1991 — Agreement on cooperation to combat illicit narcotics trafficking and abuse.
      April 30, 1996 — Counterterrorism cooperation accord to enhance capabilities to deter, prevent, respond to and investigate international terrorist acts or threats of international terrorist acts against Israel or the United States.
      July 18, 1996 — Memorandum of Agreement concerning the tactical high energy laser (THEL) advanced concept technology demonstration (ACTD).
      April 30, 1996 — Counterterrorism cooperation accord
      September 3, 1996 — Agreement for technology research and development projects.
      January 28, 1998 — Treaty on mutual assistance in criminal matters.
      February 10, 1998 — Acquisition and cross-servicing agreement with annexes.
      January 16, 2009 — Memorandum of Understanding Between The United States and Israel Regarding Prevention of the Supply of Arms and Related Materiel to Terrorist Groups
    If we are the ones supplying Israel with money who is really paying for all those things on your list? How many of those things on that list can we do on our own or are really necessary?
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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