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Thread: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    There will always be people willing to wage violence against the United States. It's just what comes with the territory when ur the biggest boy on the block, whether we deserve it or not. As long as we're the hegemonic superpower some freak out there is going to want to bomb the crap out of us. You make it sound like taking away a terrorist's will is easy. Ideologically motivated individuals aren't easily stopped.
    I agree with that. But, they can be stopped; it's not impossible. The, "how do you defeat an ideology", and, "how do you defeat an enemy that isn't afraid to die", arguments are simply a display of ignorance. We just have to kill them faster and at a higher rate, until they run out of people who are willing and people who aren't afraid to die.

    Personally, I think an enemy that isn't afraid to die can be defeated more quickly than an enemy that is afraid to die.
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    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    [b][Any one who claims that politicians had less input in WW2 than Vietnam should never speak of history again/b]. Lordy lordy lordy. Hell, just for one example, why do you think we focused on Europe before Japan?
    Anyone that thinks anyone even said that needs to actually read the ****ing thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    There's a major and important difference. Japan was a country, that could surrender and stop, and had a leader who could surrender. This foe flys no flag, belongs to no country. I'm afraid you can't treat them like Japan, and I think this has been the flaw in most our thinking as a country to date.
    There are two options for actors in a war. 1) they can officially surrender, because they lost their will and means to carry on the fight, or 2) they can just cease to exist, because they've lost the will and means to carry on the war.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Precisely. Japanese troops were indoctrinated to serve the state. We could defeat them militarily because they were tools of the Japanese state. Terrorist organizations today are non-state actors, makes a HUGE difference.
    No, not really. If we invoke the maximum amount of violence upon a terrorist org, then there will be fewer and fewer people that will be willing to join their ranks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I agree with that. But, they can be stopped; it's not impossible. The, "how do you defeat an ideology", and, "how do you defeat an enemy that isn't afraid to die", arguments are simply a display of ignorance. We just have to kill them faster and at a higher rate, until they run out of people who are willing and people who aren't afraid to die.

    Personally, I think an enemy that isn't afraid to die can be defeated more quickly than an enemy that is afraid to die.
    But if you kill innocent people along the way, what you do is create more faster than you kill them. It isn't their lack of fear to die that is the problem. It is the reasons why people join such groups that is. And that there is no real head to cut off or convince to surrender.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    We forgot how to fight a war after World War II.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    We took a hill, then we retreated. Then we took it again, then we retreated. We fought Vietnam without any clear objective of what it was we wanted to achieve. We had a 150 decision makers worried more about elections and public opinions than the soldiers that were stuck in limbo halfway around the world.

    What I described in the earlier post is the way wars have ALWAYS been won. You can choose to hate it - I hate it, too - but that's just the way it is.

    Killing the innocent is unavoidable. Not as much as it used to be, but still completely unavoidable, unless you really aren't committed to winning the war.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Anyone that thinks anyone even said that needs to actually read the ****ing thread.
    You probably should start reading.
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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    But if you kill innocent people along the way, what you do is create more faster than you kill them. It isn't their lack of fear to die that is the problem. It is the reasons why people join such groups that is. And that there is no real head to cut off or convince to surrender.
    How many German, Japanese, Italian and French terrorists did we create during WW2? There were 15,000 civilians killled during the early days of Operation Overlord. How many terrorists were created?

    I think people have bought into a bull**** idea and don't even realize it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    I agree with that. But, they can be stopped; it's not impossible.
    I agree it's not impossible, but it might be so difficult as to be not even worth the effort. It takes a huge amount of economic resources and manpower to fight an asymmetrical enemy.

    The, "how do you defeat an ideology", and, "how do you defeat an enemy that isn't afraid to die", arguments are simply a display of ignorance.
    I think we fundamentally disagree here. Those arguments are pretty legitimate imo.

    We just have to kill them faster and at a higher rate, until they run out of people who are willing and people who aren't afraid to die.
    Sounds good in theory, but I'm not sure how practical/possible that is, or if it will even work. In warfare, the moral is often stronger than the material, especially in asymmetrical conflicts. And again, even if we do break the enemy's back by killing every last one of them, would it even be worth it in the end? Currently we spend $20 million for every one combatant killed in Afghanistan.

    Personally, I think an enemy that isn't afraid to die can be defeated more quickly than an enemy that is afraid to die.
    I believe that an enemy who is afraid to die is already defeated. His will to fight you is already absent.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You probably should start reading.
    I don't see anyone saying that politicians didn't have a say in what happened during WW2. Perhaps you could point it out for me? As always, thanks in advance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I agree it's not impossible, but it might be so difficult as to be not even worth the effort. It takes a huge amount of economic resources and manpower to fight an asymmetrical enemy.
    I disagree. I think it would cost alot less to defeat an unconventional force than a conventional force.



    I think we fundamentally disagree here. Those arguments are pretty legitimate imo.
    History tells a much different story.



    Sounds good in theory, but I'm not sure how practical/possible that is, or if it will even work. In warfare, the moral is often stronger than the material, especially in asymmetrical conflicts. And again, even if we do break the enemy's back by killing every last one of them, would it even be worth it in the end? Currently we spend $20 million for every one combatant killed in Afghanistan.
    It's not theory, because it's been done hundreds of times, throughout history, in many different wars.



    I believe that an enemy who is afraid to die is already defeated. His will to fight you is already absent.
    A fighter that is afraid to die, is going to fight harder to stay alive. As General Patton said, "no bastard ever won a war by dieing for his country. He won it, by making that other poor dumb bastard die for his country". Dead soldiers can't win wars; there's no way to argue that they can.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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