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Thread: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Except our airpower wasn't absolutely untouchable, it wasn't precise, and the attacks were designed to destroy the ability to fight economically, not necessarily their will to fight. Its the difference between strategic bombing and shock and awe. Of course the effects and definitions can overlap sometimes, but I think there's a clear difference between the air campaign over Hamburg in WW2 and Baghdad in 2003.
    Allied bombing during WW2 was most definitely designed to deprive the Germans of the will to fight, in addition to destroying war manufacturing and depleting the man power pool that the Germans had to draw on for soldiers and workers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That distinction doesn't mean much. [/No one fought not to lose either.
    You're incorrect, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You're incorrect, too.
    No, I'm not. We want to win, to end it, but could not figure out how to. Excessive civilian deaths were not acceptable. Nor was there any cause that would warrant such genocide. War is not a football game. What people will accept in a democracy is far less than you can get with a dictatorship. But we don't want to become such an oppressive government. this means, you have to weight when you choose to fight a war differently. You can just want to fight one. You need serious cause.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    It would have been fought to win, not just reach a certain political stopping point. Factor out the politicians and places like Haiphong and Hanoi wouldn't have been off limits to American bombing.
    What I'm saying that in such a case, what would be the definition of "winning?" Like, what would the end game have been in Vietnam? And even if we did "win," would it have been worth it? We dropped more ordnance in Vietnam than all of World War II. You can't really bomb an enemy into submission when his will is indestructible, which is shown by the fact that the NVA kept on fighting even after sustaining inordinate casualty rates. In the end, everything we did in Vietnam was pretty much just bad policy, beginning with the decision to become militarily involved there.

    We defeated Facism and Bushidoism during WW2. So, you're incorrect there.
    Perhaps. But the Cold War wasn't won with military force (more like Communism killed itself), and we'll never defeat "terrorism." Terrorism is a strategy, it is a means to an end. You can't really "defeat" something like terrorism.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Allied bombing during WW2 was most definitely designed to deprive the Germans of the will to fight, in addition to destroying war manufacturing and depleting the man power pool that the Germans had to draw on for soldiers and workers.
    Exactly but our air campaign over Baghdad in 2003 did not have those goals in mind, hince why they are different and why Hamburg was not subject to shock and awe but rather strategic bombing.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Allied bombing during WW2 was most definitely designed to deprive the Germans of the will to fight, in addition to destroying war manufacturing and depleting the man power pool that the Germans had to draw on for soldiers and workers.
    Yeah, shock and awe. It really didn't effect soldiers all that much, but it did clog the roads with helpless, innocent, refugees.

    Didn't work with the Jap military either. Fire bombing killed more civilians than the A bombs.

    ricksfolly

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Exactly but our air campaign over Baghdad in 2003 did not have those goals in mind.
    Didn't have to. The army was just a shell of what it used to be and only offered scattered resistance in places like Fuluga and other Sunni communities.

    ricksfolly

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    Didn't have to. The army was just a shell of what it used to be and only offered scattered resistance in places like Fuluga and other Sunni communities.

    ricksfolly
    Fallujah. And I agree strategic bombing wasn't required at all, but I'm just arguing the meaning of words.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    we'll never defeat "terrorism." Terrorism is a strategy, it is a means to an end. You can't really "defeat" something like terrorism.
    Arab terrorism is more like retaliation, not as a strategy, because it's always a one man Sunni suicide attack on Shiite gatherings, rarely our soldiers. 90 pct of our casualties were from road bombs and accidents.

    You're right about not being able to defeat them or even find them because they're already gone, real gone... Kaboom!!

    ricksfolly

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, I'm not. We want to win, to end it, but could not figure out how to. Excessive civilian deaths were not acceptable. Nor was there any cause that would warrant such genocide. War is not a football game. What people will accept in a democracy is far less than you can get with a dictatorship. But we don't want to become such an oppressive government. this means, you have to weight when you choose to fight a war differently. You can just want to fight one. You need serious cause.
    What democratic people expect out of a war is brevity. The only whiners over civilian casualties are the, "we souldn't be there", Libbos. They believe that the quicker we can lose a war, the sooner it will be over. the only problem, is that they couldn't be more wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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