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Thread: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    A fighter that is afraid to die, is going to fight harder to stay alive. As General Patton said, "no bastard ever won a war by dieing for his country. He won it, by making that other poor dumb bastard die for his country". Dead soldiers can't win wars; there's no way to argue that they can.
    I would agree with you for A fighter. If a force of fighters who aren't afraid to die is large enough, then they would be nearly impossible to defeat.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    I would agree with you for A fighter. If a force of fighters who aren't afraid to die is large enough, then they would be nearly impossible to defeat.
    You're still wrong.

    If the entire force isn't afraid to die, then they're all going to die and then what?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You're still wrong.

    If the entire force isn't afraid to die, then they're all going to die and then what?
    Did I not say if said force outnumbers you?

    OR - if they outnumber the will of the enemy. I believe this is the theory behind those who use suicide bombing tactics. It's not that they can win in a standard fight; it's that they hope to break the political will of their enemy.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    History tells a much different story.
    History tells us that we don't usually defeat ideologically motivated individuals by force/killing. Usually they are defeated because their own ideology falls on its face, or people just get so sick of the fighting that they stop. In recent memory, the only asymmetrical conflict to be won by the conventional side using brute force that comes to my mind is Sri Lanka vs. the Tamils. I'm not so sure that's a model we should, or even want to, adopt.

    It's not theory, because it's been done hundreds of times, throughout history, in many different wars.
    The nature of the state, and therefore of warfare, has changed throughout history. Back then it was cool to just massacre entire populations because they didn't possess the capability to fight back. That isn't the case anymore, especially in a world where terrorists have access to more and more technology.

    A fighter that is afraid to die, is going to fight harder to stay alive. As General Patton said, "no bastard ever won a war by dieing for his country. He won it, by making that other poor dumb bastard die for his country". Dead soldiers can't win wars; there's no way to argue that they can.
    We're not talking about conventional warfare and armies of nation-states though. For the terrorist, winning takes on an entirely different definition than it does for the private soldier in an army. For a terrorist organization, "winning" is entirely different from what a nation-state and its army would define as winning.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    Did I not say if said force outnumbers you?

    OR - if they outnumber the will of the enemy. I believe this is the theory behind those who use suicide bombing tactics. It's not that they can win in a standard fight; it's that they hope to break the political will of their enemy.
    No, you said, "if it's large enough".

    The Chinese outnumbered American forces in Korea and they weren't afraid to die. At the end of the day, that didn't work out very well for the Chicoms.

    Again, "No bastard ever won a war by dieing for his country. He won it, by making some other poor bastard die for his country".
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    History tells us that we don't usually defeat ideologically motivated individuals by force/killing. Usually they are defeated because their own ideology falls on its face, or people just get so sick of the fighting that they stop. In recent memory, the only asymmetrical conflict to be won by the conventional side using brute force that comes to my mind is Sri Lanka vs. the Tamils. I'm not so sure that's a model we should, or even want to, adopt.
    Well, that's not true, but I know you've convinced yourself, so rock on, dude.



    The nature of the state, and therefore of warfare, has changed throughout history. Back then it was cool to just massacre entire populations because they didn't possess the capability to fight back. That isn't the case anymore, especially in a world where terrorists have access to more and more technology.
    Depends on why you're doing the slaughtering.



    We're not talking about conventional warfare and armies of nation-states though. For the terrorist, winning takes on an entirely different definition than it does for the private soldier in an army. For a terrorist organization, "winning" is entirely different from what a nation-state and its army would define as winning.

    But, at some point, for the terrorists, "winning", has to include some dudes living through the experience.

    Terrorists have a post war plan, too. How do they implement that, if all their true believers are dead? Short answer: they don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I don't see anyone saying that politicians didn't have a say in what happened during WW2. Perhaps you could point it out for me? As always, thanks in advance.
    When you start reading the thread, I suggest you start with my post. That will show you the straw man you created here.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Well, that's not true, but I know you've convinced yourself, so rock on, dude.
    Give me a few examples of insurgencies or guerrilla movements that were ever successfully suppressed through the use of brute force, besides the one I mentioned above.

    But, at some point, for the terrorists, "winning", has to include some dudes living through the experience.

    Terrorists have a post war plan, too. How do they implement that, if all their true believers are dead? Short answer: they don't.
    That's true. AQ definitely hasn't "won" in any sense of the word given what OBL's original vision was. But neither are they easily defeated.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 02-09-11 at 08:59 PM.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    When you start reading the thread, I suggest you start with my post. That will show you the straw man you created here.
    Do you have any actual input? If not; then carry on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Exclusive: Rumsfeld unloads

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No, you said, "if it's large enough".

    The Chinese outnumbered American forces in Korea and they weren't afraid to die. At the end of the day, that didn't work out very well for the Chicoms.

    Again, "No bastard ever won a war by dieing for his country. He won it, by making some other poor bastard die for his country".
    Fair enough; and you're right - I didn't say exactly what I thought to say. So my apologies for that. This isn't really something I'm going to get to passionate about, so I can concede that point to you.

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