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Thread: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    The dissolution of the Union would destroy the American people materially (compare to busting up a monopoly) but it might uplift them spiritually and culturally.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 02-08-11 at 11:42 PM.
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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    The dissolution of the Union would destroy the American people materially (compare to busting up a monopoly) but it might uplift them spiritually and culturally.
    The cons of dissolving the union is so bad, that the benefits don't even deserve consideration, just like the idea in its entirety. It just isn't an option, and never should be.
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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    The cons of dissolving the union is so bad, that the benefits don't even deserve consideration, just like the idea in its entirety. It just isn't an option, and never should be.
    Its hard to be uplifted spiritually and culturally if you don't have a functioning economy actually. You might get religious extremism, as that breeds in that sort of environment, but that is hardly spiritual uplifting.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 02-08-11 at 11:50 PM.

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    The cons of dissolving the union is so bad, that the benefits don't even deserve consideration, just like the idea in its entirety. It just isn't an option, and never should be.
    It more or less destroys the United States as a military and economic superpower. Not sure how much that bothers me anymore.

    Its hard to be uplifted spiritually and culturally if you don't have a functioning economy actually.
    The Greeks (specifically Athens) and Romans were poor; they became more corrupt as they obtained more wealth and power, which ultimately lead to the "disintegration" of their civilizations.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 02-08-11 at 11:50 PM.
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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    The Greeks (specifically Athens) and Romans were poor; they became more corrupt as they obtained more wealth and power, which ultimately lead to the "disintegration" of their civilizations.
    They were poor relative to us, but they were also poor in a poor world and such things are measured by the human mind in a relative sense, not an absolute one. This is why today there is unrest in places that used to be peaceful. Television and other media made people aware of that there were rich people in other parts of the world and suddenly they felt poor instead of feeling like everyone else. In that environment, the mind is poisoned and extremism breeds.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 02-08-11 at 11:54 PM.

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Disputes over State Nullification of Fed law was one of the major causes of the Civil War.
    Ahaha. And yet no state mentions this in their declarations of secession.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    They were poor relative to us, but they were also poor in a poor world and such things are measured by the human mind in a relative sense, not an absolute one. This is why today there is unrest in places that used to be peaceful. Television and other media made people aware of that there were rich people in other parts of the world and suddenly they felt poor instead of feeling like everyone else. In that environment, the mind is poisoned and extremism breeds.
    The Athenians (and Greeks generally) identified themselves as poor because their rough and mountainous terrain did not support agriculture as strongly as water currents like the Nile did in the "nearby" civilizations of Africa and Asia Minor. They took pride in their poverty and believed it endowed them with moral and mental fortitude, a belief in which there was some truth; the scarcity of resources encouraged them to take up artisan crafts (pottery, for example), to find niches in the 'global economy' (luxury goods like olives and wine) and to explore the Mediterranean for other communities to trade with, which lead to increasing sophistication in theoretical sciences and engineering. This coupled with the successful exploitation of a number of historical developments (specifically the Persian Wars), they built up enough degree centrality to become the Athenian Empire; that is until misuse of democracy lead to the Sicilian Expedition (think Vietnam, or Iraq, but worse) which lead to the gradual erosion of their power. Not dissimilar to America's situation.


    Human wisdom tends to be sufficient that through a mixture of accidents and deliberation it can create a superpower, but maintaining one indefinitely is a challenge not yet overcome. Alexander and Napoleon created temporal superpowers. The Mongols and Athenians created one that lasted a single generation. The Chinese have waxed in and out of the stature through different periods of their existence. And America is losing ours after ninety years. So far, the Romans and to a lesser extent the Byzantines have come closest to a prolonged and unchallengeable hegemony.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 02-09-11 at 12:33 AM.
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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    The Athenians (and Greeks generally) identified themselves as poor because their rough and mountainous terrain did not support agriculture as strongly as water currents like the Nile did in the "nearby" civilizations of Africa and Asia Minor. They took pride in their poverty and believed it endowed them with moral and mental fortitude, a belief in which there was some truth; the scarcity of resources encouraged them to take up artisan crafts (pottery, for example), to find niches in the 'global economy' (luxury goods like olives and wine) and to explore the Mediterranean for other communities to trade with, which lead to increasing sophistication in theoretical sciences and engineering. This coupled with the successful exploitation of a number of historical developments (specifically the Persian Wars), they built up enough degree centrality to become the Athenian Empire; that is until misuse of democracy lead to the Sicilian Expedition (think Vietnam, or Iraq, but worse) which lead to the gradual erosion of their power. Not dissimilar to America's situation.


    Human wisdom tends to be sufficient that through a mixture of accidents and deliberation it can create a superpower nation, but maintaining one indefinitely is a challenge not yet overcome. Alexander and Napoleon created temporal superpowers. The Mongols and Athenians created one that lasted a single generation. The Chinese have waxed in and out of the stature through different periods of their existence. And America is losing ours after ninety years. So far, the Romans and to a lesser extent the Byzantines have come closest to a prolonged and unchallengeable hegemony.
    Interestingly enough, while the Athenians didn't retain their dominance in Greece very long, the Romans managed to be a superpower for centuries, first while expanding aggressively across the mediterranean and then while fighting sporadic foreign/border wars. Sometimes, states can be powerful and corrupt for quite a while before they actually collapse.

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by other View Post
    Interestingly enough, while the Athenians didn't retain their dominance in Greece very long, the Romans managed to be a superpower for centuries, first while expanding aggressively across the mediterranean and then while fighting sporadic foreign/border wars. Sometimes, states can be powerful and corrupt for quite a while before they actually collapse.
    A lot of those rules don't apply to the United States though, because improvements in communications, the distribution of goods, and the movement of people accelerates the momentum of a civilization's development through space-time. Neither years nor distance pose the same obstacle to the growth or erosion of a society as they did in ancient times; a sufficiently strong society's power can be put too work in any place almost immediately. This drastically alters the terms of any economic, cultural, or military engagement.

    Unlike the temporal empires I was referring to, Rome increased slowly over a long period of time, which proportionately slowed the incidence and severity of economic, military, and cultural challenges. But, still like the others, it couldn't address these challenges, which lead to the erosion of its power; more gradually, but under the same general rules.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 02-09-11 at 01:05 AM.
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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    A lot of those rules don't apply to the United States though, because improvements in communications, the distribution of goods, and the movement of people accelerates the momentum of a civilization's development through space-time. Neither years nor distance pose the same obstacle to the growth or erosion of a society as they did in ancient times; a sufficiently strong society's power can be put too work in any place almost immediately. This drastically alters the terms of any economic, cultural, or military engagement.
    Honestly, I don't know if advanced communications/technology really helps or hinders world powers (overall). I think an argument could be made either way, but I think I tend to agree with you -- seems sensible that the inherrent instability has more of an impact than its use to regulate/control. Don't know though, hmm.
    Last edited by other; 02-09-11 at 01:04 AM.

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