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Thread: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
    I'd dispute that. I actually wrote a paper in college about how tariffs contributed to the Civil war. On the exam for becoming a citizen, sometimes there's a question about why the civil war started. States rights, slavery and tariffs are all accepted responses
    I didn't say they weren't a contributing factor. But you cannot say that the Civil War was fought over the Tariff -- if so, it would've been fought in the late 1820s or 1830s. The tariff issue definitely created a rift, but it was put to rest by a compromise... a lower tariff. The country actually split over the issue of the expansion of slavery into the west... after several failed compromises.
    Last edited by other; 02-03-11 at 01:30 AM.

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by other View Post
    The tariff issue definitely created a rift, but the country split over the issue of the expansion of slavery into the west.
    There's many historians who would disagree with you. I posted some of their books on the previous page.

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
    There's many historians who would disagree with you. I posted some of their books on the previous page.
    I don't have access to a library at the moment, do you still have any actual quotes from those sources that say "the civil war was fought over a tariff?"

    If that's what you believe, I can assure you, there are many historians who disagree with you. Like I said, it contributed to the division, but it wasn't the primary cause.

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    You know what, Arizona should f**king try it. See what happens. This Union will not dissolve, and anyone who wants that is UnAmerican.
    I hope they do more than this. I hope they secede and I hope several other states join in. I'm all but ready, hell, I've been ready. Bring it!

    I'm unamerican because I support the ten amendment and its original use and feel its time to enact it? Ok? I'm sorry, but I'm for how the country was founded, and if you aren't, see you on the opposite side.

    And stop being partisan,
    Follow the law and none of this will be a problem.

    I bet you there's a crap load of conservatives against the nullification doctrine because, lest we forget, the last time we had this argument, 688,000 Americans died.
    Oh because succession or nullification equals death. Gets some persecutive and realize the northern aggression is what caused the civil war to break out and therefore all the deaths.
    Last edited by Henrin; 02-03-11 at 01:46 AM.

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by other View Post
    I don't have access to a library at the moment, do you still have any actual quotes from those sources that say "the civil war was fought over a tariff?"

    If that's what you believe, I can assure you, there are many historians who disagree with you. Like I said, it contributed to the division, but it wasn't the primary cause.
    It's not that it was faught over a tariff, its that the states were splintering on many issues and tariffs happened to be one of them. http://mises.org/etexts/taussig.pdf
    The taussig essays. Most of the things I posted are open source, as they are very old documents. Skip to page 43 (in the book) or 46 (in this pdf). It's dense stuff and I wouldn't expect anyone to read it unless they're really interested. It was written in 1888, after all.
    "The Civil War was fought over what important issue?" - one of the twenty questions on an exam administered by the IMS to prospective American citizens.
    According to the INS, you are correct if you say either "slavery or states rights".

    Here's part of Egnal's paper: Rethinking the secession of the Lower South: the clash of two groups. | Goliath Business News

    I can't really give you many quotes because I have these books in print and can't just ctrl-f this.

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    They are sovereign.

    This is re-re-quoted from a post made by a user here last year or so.









    You libs can hide behind rulings like Texas v. White if you wish, but the fact remains the country is founded on a union of nations that allows those nations to break from that union if they so wish. There is a logical reason that can't be denied that the states are called states and the union is called a union. Try to pretend if you wish that union was indeed a take over by the all powerful government if you wish than do you damnest to try to support it by statements of the time.

    Anyway, I support this action. More states need to threaten to leave.
    interesting quotes you have there, you should add to it the Federalist Paper number 17, it discusses the fears the federalists had of states gaining power over the federal government because since the state government is closer to each individual they'd be more likely to side with their state against the federal government.

    unfortunately after all of these quotes and writings there was a giant war that killed 600,000 people the results of which made it completely infeasible for any state to actually ever be sovereign again. then the 17th amendment which took the state governments' power of choosing senators away. states have only have the powers that the current federal government allows them to have, in every instance the supreme court will back the federal government (them being agents of the federal government afterall what would you expect?).

    don't worry, the federalist system is very key to what made the US such a brilliant idea. the farther we move away from it, the more apparent the reasoning behind it comes, and the closer to the next awakening we get. it's like a ratchet, we can only move in one direction (away from federalism) until it breaks and we gotta put it back together from scratch.
    Democracy is two wolves and sheep voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well armed sheep willing to contest the vote.

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Read the anti-federalists' papers if you really want knowledge about our founders' fear of federal power.

    Federalist papers had hamilton help write them, who loooooved tons of centralized government power. Madison was akin to hamilton back then and John Jay only contributed to like 4-5 of the papers.

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
    It's not that it was faught over a tariff, its that the states were splintering on many issues and tariffs happened to be one of them. http://mises.org/etexts/taussig.pdf
    The taussig essays. Most of the things I posted are open source, as they are very old documents. Skip to page 43 (in the book) or 46 (in this pdf). It's dense stuff and I wouldn't expect anyone to read it unless they're really interested. It was written in 1888, after all.
    "The Civil War was fought over what important issue?" - one of the twenty questions on an exam administered by the IMS to prospective American citizens.
    According to the INS, you are correct if you say either "slavery or states rights".

    Here's part of Egnal's paper: Rethinking the secession of the Lower South: the clash of two groups. | Goliath Business News

    I can't really give you many quotes because I have these books in print and can't just ctrl-f this.
    Thanks for the links. I don't think we're in disagreement. We, and the links you provided, agree that the tariff was a contributing factor. Aside from the issue of a nat'l bank it was probably the oldest sectional divide. The war, however, was sparked, over the issue of slavery -- states rights being pertinent to both issues.

    What I was saying earlier is that, by the 1850s and 60s, the tariff was not the most salient issue, the expansion of slavery into the west was. Look at Bleeding Kansas... you might say the civil war actually started there, well before 1861 -- only no states had yet seceeded. The fighting broke out over slavery in the territory as it struggled for statehood. The tariff didn't matter in Kansas like it did in South Carolina or Virginia.

    That said, the tariff was certainly an issue in the debates, in the latter 1850s northerners were pissed that it was so low and even made it a campaign issue in national elections. This definitely raised rancor in the south and served to worsen the divide, but not like the abolitionists -- or percieved abolitionists (Republicans) -- did.
    Last edited by other; 02-03-11 at 02:04 AM.

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    SCOTUS:

    "Federal Supremacy. SB1433 overturned."

    Arizona:


    (not that this will pass in the first place.)


    Of course, I would not cry much if Arizona DID pass this and try to act like they're a sovereign nation. Remember how that worked out last time? 49 to 1 odds this time, AZ...
    You just can't help yourself; big govt control is such a part of your soul that it irks you to think someone might disagree with your precious big federal govt. Oh boohoo.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Do you really think, at the rate things are going, that their couldn't be another civil war in this country? Wonder how many of you know that many communities are already using something other then the US dollar as currency? Tired of Cash, Local Communities Using Alternative Currencies to Come Together | Trend World | Big Think

    Do you know what is going to happen in this country, if the dollar is no longer the primary reserve currency of the world? It has already lost nearly 11% to other major currencies (since the end of 2008) or that their have been meetings going on without the US present The demise of the dollar - Business News, Business - The Independent

    Can anyone image what is going to happen if this happens? Oil prices could more then double overnight. Inflation will follow, at rates we have never seen before.

    Now consider the divide in this country now between liberals and conservatives, you don't think it will widen even more ?? I'm certainly not promoting another civil war, but I would suggest it not be brushed off so quickly, because the divide among the parties and the people that support them, is becoming more and more un-civil every day . Don't believe me, just read the threads here on the boards.

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