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Thread: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    So basically they are ignoring the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution?

    Fine by me. The federal government can withhold federal funding from them and give them a taste of what it really is like to be sovereign.

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    Unless you want to say the Civil War was not caused by tensions on the issue of State Rights v. Federal Rights.

    That was indeed one of, if not THE, main reasons the Civil War happened.

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by other View Post
    The Civil War wasn't fought over a tariff, last I checked.
    I'd dispute that. I actually wrote a paper in college about how tariffs contributed to the Civil war. On the exam for becoming a citizen, sometimes there's a question about why the civil war started. States rights, slavery and tariffs are all accepted responses

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    That was indeed one of, if not THE, main reasons the Civil War happened.
    It was a reason, but the main reason was slavery. Says so, right in the articles of secession put forward by the Confederacy.
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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    It was a reason, but the main reason was slavery. Says so, right in the articles of secession put forward by the Confederacy.
    Which some of the Southern States cleverly labeled as being a state issue.

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    It was a reason, but the main reason was slavery. Says so, right in the articles of secession put forward by the Confederacy.
    So I assume you also believe that we fought Iraq only for the reasons listed in the use-of-force resolutions?

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    It was a reason, but the main reason was slavery. Says so, right in the articles of secession put forward by the Confederacy.
    Actually, the main argument for slavery can be found in the speeches and public letters of deep southerners who were appointed as commissioners to try and convince the upper south to secede by appealing to the audiences' feelings of white supremacy and the preservation of slavery. A good source for these can be found in Apostles of Disunion: Southern Secession Commissioners and the Causes of the Civil War by Charles Dew.

    There's many other arguments to be found that it wasn't the main reason, though. If you can, I suggest you read "Rethinking the secession of the lower south: The Clash of Two groups" by Marc Egnal. He argues that economic differences in the north and south caused it.

    The tariff issue is harder to argue, but I managed to do it once. It hinges on the fact that the south and north were splitting from 1920 on and tariffs contributed to this split. Required some obscure sources, but its definitely doable. I'll list my sources for anyone wanting to read more about it.
    Beard, Charles. History of the United States. New York: The MacMillan Company, 1921.
    Mark Thornton and Robert B. Ekelund, Jr. Tariffs, Blockades, and Inflation - The Economics of the Civil War. SR (Scholarly Resources) Books, 2004.
    Remini, Robert V. Andrew Jackson (V.3). Twayne Publishers, 1966.
    —. Henry Clay: Statesman for the Union. New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 1993.
    Stampp, Kenneth M. America in 1857: A Nation on the Brink. New York: Oxford University Press, 1990.
    Stanwood, Edward. American Tariff Controversies in the Ninteenth Century. Boston: The Riverside Press, 1904.
    Taussig, Frank William. The Tariff History of the United States: A Series of Essays. New York: The Knickerbocker Press, 1888.
    Taylor, George Rogers. The Great Tariff Debate, 1820-1830. Boston: D C Heath & Co, 1953.


    Taussig's 1888 essays being the most important.
    Last edited by iamitter; 02-03-11 at 12:40 AM.

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    SCOTUS:

    "Federal Supremacy. SB1433 overturned."

    Arizona:


    (not that this will pass in the first place.)


    Of course, I would not cry much if Arizona DID pass this and try to act like they're a sovereign nation. Remember how that worked out last time? 49 to 1 odds this time, AZ...
    There was no Posse Comitatis, the last time. But, hey, don't let reality stand in your way of wishing.
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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    So basically they are ignoring the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution?

    Fine by me. The federal government can withhold federal funding from them and give them a taste of what it really is like to be sovereign.
    How many billions in tax revenue will the Federal government lose in that scenario? In this economy, I don't think our current government has the balls to put a dog in that fight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Arizona to secede (without OFFICIALLY doing so)

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    Whatever you want to say, the same principle from nullification applies directly to secession. Obviously, the federal government is going to enforce whatever the Arizona law nullifies, and thats going to create another battle of states' rights v. federal rights.

    Unless you want to say the Civil War was not caused by tensions on the issue of State Rights v. Federal Rights.
    My point was that nullification doen't lead to secession; the fact that nullification failed made secession the only option later on. Had nullification succeeded, there likely would have never been any secession at all... The south could have simply nullified any federal mandates they opposed regarding slavery.

    They're not the same thing, even if they both revolve around the issue of states rights.
    Last edited by other; 02-03-11 at 01:20 AM.

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