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Thread: Where Did the Stimulus Go?

  1. #41
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    Re: Where Did the Stimulus Go?

    Hoax and change

    Don't know where you got your graphs since you didn't source them but the non-partisan CBO says the stimulus prevented another depression as did this study by Moody's chief economist and Princeton University expert -

    "An in-depth modelling exercise by Moody's chief economist, Mark Zandi, and a Princeton University expert, Alan Blinder, paints a bleak scenario of a 1930s-style Great Depression if the US government had enacted none of its $1.7tn (1.3tn) programmes to avert a financial meltdown.

    Using historical statistical relationships and a focus on the government's impact on narrowing credit spreads, the pair found that the downturn would have continued into 2011, with unemployment peaking at 16.5% rather than last year's actual high of 10.1%.

    They believe US gross domestic product would have slumped by 7.4% in 2009 and by 3.7% in 2010, producing a "peak to trough" decline of 12%, rather than the anticipated 4%. Starved of demand, shops and employers would be cutting prices and wages.

    "With outright deflation in prices and wages in 2009 to 2011, this dark scenario constitutes a 1930s-like depression," says the study, entitled How the great recession was brought to an end."
    US bailouts prevented 1930s-style Great Depression says new study | Business | The Guardian
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  2. #42
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    Re: Where Did the Stimulus Go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Don't know where you got your graphs since you didn't source them...
    He already hates me for pointing out that he plagiarizes. I do applaud him, though. He finally started quoting the quotes he takes from other people, though now he is throwing around unsourced charts.

    Maybe he made them himself?

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    Re: Where Did the Stimulus Go?

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    That's because we have one of the most underdeveloped track systems compared to the rest of the developed world. Like Obama said in his SOTUA, we were graded a D- on our infrastructure.
    So after spending billions of dollars on Infrastructure via PORKULUS........we still have a D-.

    Why would anyone take a train when it is slow and does not go to the destination they want?

    This train will be awesome. I will take it often, as I am sure many will. NC to DC, DC to NY. I will be good for the environment, less on fuel, cheaper on the wallet, and fast.

    Why are you upset at us catching up with the rest of the world?
    Similar to all Public options......Public transportation works.......when you give "free" people no other option.

    Oh were catching up alright.........



    ......next stop......Bankruptcy, USA.....all aboard.
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    Re: Where Did the Stimulus Go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Don't know where you got your graphs since you didn't source them but the non-partisan CBO says the stimulus prevented another depression as did this study by Moody's chief economist and Princeton University expert -

    "An in-depth modelling exercise by Moody's chief economist, Mark Zandi, and a Princeton University expert, Alan Blinder, paints a bleak scenario of a 1930s-style Great Depression if the US government had enacted none of its $1.7tn (1.3tn) programmes to avert a financial meltdown.

    Using historical statistical relationships and a focus on the government's impact on narrowing credit spreads, the pair found that the downturn would have continued into 2011, with unemployment peaking at 16.5% rather than last year's actual high of 10.1%.

    They believe US gross domestic product would have slumped by 7.4% in 2009 and by 3.7% in 2010, producing a "peak to trough" decline of 12%, rather than the anticipated 4%. Starved of demand, shops and employers would be cutting prices and wages.

    "With outright deflation in prices and wages in 2009 to 2011, this dark scenario constitutes a 1930s-like depression," says the study, entitled How the great recession was brought to an end."
    US bailouts prevented 1930s-style Great Depression says new study | Business | The Guardian
    what good is having an authoritarian regime if they don't have 'experts' to wheel out and arm their acolytes with talking points and made up statistics?
    Democracy is two wolves and sheep voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well armed sheep willing to contest the vote.

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    Re: Where Did the Stimulus Go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Don't know where you got your graphs since you didn't source them
    The first chart comes from The Kenyan Tyrant and his team of economic "experts".........surely you saw it when they were selling you their Stimulus to Nowhere......

    The second graph comes from the BLS.......

    but the non-partisan CBO says the stimulus prevented another depression as did this study by Moody's chief economist and Princeton University expert -
    So you and your 4 or 5 economists disagree with these 400 Economists?

    Untitled Document

    "An in-depth modelling exercise by Moody's chief economist, Mark Zandi, and a Princeton University expert, Alan Blinder, paints a bleak scenario of a 1930s-style Great Depression if the US government had enacted none of its $1.7tn (1.3tn) programmes to avert a financial meltdown.

    Using historical statistical relationships and a focus on the government's impact on narrowing credit spreads, the pair found that the downturn would have continued into 2011, with unemployment peaking at 16.5% rather than last year's actual high of 10.1%.

    They believe US gross domestic product would have slumped by 7.4% in 2009 and by 3.7% in 2010, producing a "peak to trough" decline of 12%, rather than the anticipated 4%. Starved of demand, shops and employers would be cutting prices and wages.

    "With outright deflation in prices and wages in 2009 to 2011, this dark scenario constitutes a 1930s-like depression," says the study, entitled How the great recession was brought to an end."
    US bailouts prevented 1930s-style Great Depression says new study | Business | The Guardian
    ....and Im guessing you also believe it was FDR's Raw Deal that brought us out of the Great Depression?

    Just remember......without Obama's Stimulus it would have been worse.......and when its worse......it would have been worser.
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    Re: Where Did the Stimulus Go?

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    He already hates me for pointing out that he plagiarizes. I do applaud him, though. He finally started quoting the quotes he takes from other people, though now he is throwing around unsourced charts.

    Maybe he made them himself?
    The now-sourced charts aside.......could you give me an example of all the quotes you claim I have plagiarized?

    And I dont hate you......I hate what you and your ilk are doing to this once great country.
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  7. #47
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    Re: Where Did the Stimulus Go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Badmutha
    Lets go with Nanny Statist government then. Place it where you will on the political spectrum........its left field to me and the founders.
    I'm not sure what you mean by this reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badmutha
    If that were true....the government would be comprised of 52% Conservatives--49% Independents--19% Liberals. A government that controls every aspect of our economy and society dictates the product.
    Again, this doesn't follow--you're committing the fallacy of composition. Small armies sometimes defeat large ones. Colorless substances mix to form pigments. And so on. Government doesn't have to be composed of the exact proportions of positions held by the people as a whole for my point to be true (and I tend to disagree with your figures, but that's not relevant).

    The actions of government are important, but what I'm really getting at is the causes of those actions. The American People are greedy and materialistic, and these same forces drive the actions of government. They drive the actions of liberals, conservatives, and those in between. The American People are uneducated and undisciplined, and these same forces drive the actions of government. And so when liberals or conservatives act, the actions they take tend towards the same results--a perpetuation of our downward slide.

    Quote Originally Posted by badmutha
    Its a seperate entity that resides and operates in Imaginationland
    Where Jesus is President and Manbearpig is the Secretary of Defense...

    Quote Originally Posted by Badmutha
    The biggest economic boom and advancement of humanity the planet has ever seen........
    Why do you think that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Badmutha
    And even if you believe it has......AT WHAT COST?

    At what figure would you say government created or saved jobs act as a detriment rather than a benefit?

    $1,000,000.00 per job? $500,000.00 per job? $200,000 per job?
    Depends on the situation and what the goal is. At some point, when enough people can't get jobs, you end up with social unrest. And at some further point, if that is allowed to continue, you end up with a revolution. Given how tied into the world economy our own is, that would be a disaster of epic proportions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badmutha
    Except nowhere in the theory stated, is there an explanation of where the money ultimately comes from.
    Oh, quite a lot more than that is left out...but this is a discussion forum after all, not a doctoral dissertation.

    However, since you ask, here it is:

    There are three economies. The primary economy is the environment, from which we derive raw materials. The production of clean fresh water in aquifers and wetlands, the production of wood in forrests, the production of grain in fields, etc.--all of that is the primary economy.

    The secondary economy is the economy of goods human beings produce from raw materials extracted from the primary economy.

    The tertiary economy is the flow of money which has a numerical relationship to the quantities of production and extraction in the secondary economy, and extraction in the primary economy.

    In order for money to work, it must maintain some proportion to goods in the primary economy. At the same time, enough of it must remain liquid in order to facilitate the trade of goods and services in the secondary economy. Where wealth gaps are very large, the tertiary and secondary economies become very inefficient. This is why, in a nutshell, pure capitalism fails (I'm sure you're well aware of the reasons pure socialism fails...and it does fail, just as surely as pure capitalism). When the wealth gap is very large, the entity issuing money is faced with a dilemma--not printing money maintains the numerical proportion of money to goods and services, but fails to provide the liquidity necessary to facilitate trade. Printing money does just the opposite.

    This is why I stated I don't like the spending bill. We risk hyperinflation, especially should the derivatives market ever collapse (since the banks which facilitate those markets would be compelled to print money to cover the notional value of the derivatives). It came dangerously close in 2008.

    But not doing so has a more direct consequence, as I stated above. If the secondary market lacks enough money to facilitate trade, then you have physical breakdowns in the economy, and that's how revolutions and/or coups happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badmutha
    If we lived in a world of money trees, perhaps that theory would have merit, unfortunately we do not. And employers paying people not to work, has never created a single job in the history of mankind.
    I disagree. We can create as much money as we want; the production of money itself isn't problematic. So we don't live in a forest of money trees...but we might as well.

    What do you think does create jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Badmutha
    Well follow this.........Almost 2 eyars after THE LARGEST SPENDING BILL IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.......we saw a whopping 36,000 jobs created last month.

    R.I.P......any notion of Government "creating jobs" or government stimulating an economy via MASSIVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING.
    Again, doesn't follow. There may be many reasons for this--it's not necessarily the case that the principle itself is flawed.

  8. #48
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    Re: Where Did the Stimulus Go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Badmutha View Post
    Just remember......without Obama's Stimulus it would have been worse.......and when its worse......it would have been worser.
    Judging Stimulus by Job Data Reveals Success

    "Imagine if, one year ago, Congress had passed a stimulus bill that really worked.

    Let’s say this bill had started spending money within a matter of weeks and had rapidly helped the economy. Let’s also imagine it was large enough to have had a huge impact on jobs — employing something like two million people who would otherwise be unemployed right now.

    If that had happened, what would the economy look like today?

    Well, it would look almost exactly as it does now. Because those nice descriptions of the stimulus that I just gave aren’t hypothetical. They are descriptions of the actual bill.

    Just look at the outside evaluations of the stimulus. Perhaps the best-known economic research firms are IHS Global Insight, Macroeconomic Advisers and Moody’s Economy.com. They all estimate that the bill has added 1.6 million to 1.8 million jobs so far and that its ultimate impact will be roughly 2.5 million jobs. The Congressional Budget Office, an independent agency, considers these estimates to be conservative."
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #49
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    Re: Where Did the Stimulus Go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Don't know where you got your graphs since you didn't source them but the non-partisan CBO says the stimulus prevented another depression as did this study by Moody's chief economist and Princeton University expert -

    "An in-depth modelling exercise by Moody's chief economist, Mark Zandi, and a Princeton University expert, Alan Blinder, paints a bleak scenario of a 1930s-style Great Depression if the US government had enacted none of its $1.7tn (1.3tn) programmes to avert a financial meltdown.

    Using historical statistical relationships and a focus on the government's impact on narrowing credit spreads, the pair found that the downturn would have continued into 2011, with unemployment peaking at 16.5% rather than last year's actual high of 10.1%.

    They believe US gross domestic product would have slumped by 7.4% in 2009 and by 3.7% in 2010, producing a "peak to trough" decline of 12%, rather than the anticipated 4%. Starved of demand, shops and employers would be cutting prices and wages.

    "With outright deflation in prices and wages in 2009 to 2011, this dark scenario constitutes a 1930s-like depression," says the study, entitled How the great recession was brought to an end."
    US bailouts prevented 1930s-style Great Depression says new study | Business | The Guardian
    It should be pointed out that Blinder and Zandi did not seperate TARP with the stimulus, thus the number bigger than stimulus. No one bothered to press them on this. If they did you would find that when they talk of depression it is about a frozen financial system that thawed under TARP. Stimulus gave a short term shot in the arm which helped somewhat but is not the major contributor to what those folks talked about.

  10. #50
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    Re: Where Did the Stimulus Go?

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    It should be pointed out that Blinder and Zandi did not seperate TARP with the stimulus, thus the number bigger than stimulus. No one bothered to press them on this. If they did you would find that when they talk of depression it is about a frozen financial system that thawed under TARP. Stimulus gave a short term shot in the arm which helped somewhat but is not the major contributor to what those folks talked about.
    The tarp funds and the stimulus while being called different names were both government spending to stimulate the economy, so there would be no need to separate them for analysis I would think.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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