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Armed bystander almost shot hero that disarmed AZ shooter

Hoplite said:
I dont fear firearms, I simply feel that they add a more dangerous factor to public life that I dont feel is necessary.
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I'm not comfortable handling guns. I do feel safer when I'm out and about, knowing that if something crazy like Tuscon happens, there's a good possibility there will also be a good guy/lady with a gun.
That thought makes me feel safer than being in some gun free zone.
 
I wonder if that's predominantly a male sentiment or if many women feel the same way.
 
Almost, by definition means it didn't happen. Claiming that a guy was there with a gun and thought about shooting = a real danger is a fallacy. That's like saying there was almost a car accident when two cars, driving on the correct side of the road, passed within feet of each other. That's how it is supposed to be. He did the right thing.
 
I think this actually shows that gun owners are not irresponsible shoot-first think later type people.

Thanks for posting this, it reminds me why I support the 2nd amendment! :2wave:
 
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VanceMack said:
While I AM opposed to using ANY tragedy as a springboard for furthering political gains, I also not only dont think EVERYONE should be armed (with firearms) but in fact believe MANY sane, intelligent individuals have absolutely no business carrying firearms. My own wife for example. Had she been armed in this instance and been present she would not have pulled a weapon on the shooter (scratch that-if she had been present and the shooter had directly expressed an intent to harm her children or granchildren, dood couldnt and wouldnt have been dead enough...and she probably woulodnt have needed a weapon to kill him). However some people in a one on one stuation where a firearm would be needed are much more likely to freeze or hesitate than to defend themselves with a firearm. Much more likely the weapon would then be used against them. Those individuals SHOULD (in my opinion) carry pepper foam...not spray..and be well trained in recognizing individuals that represent harm and appropriate defensive tactics...but should NOT carry guns.
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I am planning on buying my adult daughter a Mace Pistol. It is capable of firing up to 15 times and up to 25 feet. It could incompacitate for 30-45 minutes. I like it because it is designed like a pistol so there is no doubt which direction to point it as versus the traditional pepper sprays. In this situation within a crowd one is not going to kill anybody if you accidentally hit them.
Not only does it temporary blind them it is so agonizing their hands are going to be rubbing their eyes.

Before anyone jumps to it I will admit is weak in a gun to gun battle but in many situations I belive it is superior.
 
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Hoplite said:
I dont fear firearms, I simply feel that they add a more dangerous factor to public life that I dont feel is necessary.
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I feel the same way about socialists
 
pbrauer said:
Not at all, however I do believe arming everyone is complete nuts. I am not anti 2nd Amendment, I believe you have the right to protect yourself. But a 33 round Glock is insane.
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A 33 round Glock is not insance. What is insane are people like the Arizona shooter. Guns did not enable him. He was bound to kill. What people need to be taught is to defend themselves. Why did it take so long for a crowd of 100+ to tackle just one person?
 
Perhaps I'm a retard, but I don't see how this story proves anything against guns. It proves that gun owners don't just shoot first and ask questions later. A normal guy had a gun on the scene of a mass murder, and did not shoot any innocent people. The system of normal guys carrying weapons worked. He didn't mess up.
 
Hoplite said:
I have never once in my life claimed that people shouldnt have guns. I HAVE said that they shouldnt be allowed to carry them wherever they please.
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I didnt respond to your comment pro or con re firearms. I commented on what I percieved as a joking comment about everyone should have a bodyguard, to which I made a light-hearted response.
 
Gray_Fox_86 said:
A 33 round Glock is not insance. What is insane are people like the Arizona shooter. Guns did not enable him. He was bound to kill. What people need to be taught is to defend themselves. Why did it take so long for a crowd of 100+ to tackle just one person?
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In such an incident people have to deal with the shock, situational awareness, emotions, so many things. They focus on that extensively in the military and still have soldiers fold in the face of the real deal.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
In such an incident people have to deal with the shock, situational awareness, emotions, so many things. They focus on that extensively in the military and still have soldiers fold in the face of the real deal.
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I agree...it is easy to state what you think YOU would have done when you arent the one at the pointy end of the sharp stick. I dont fault anyone in the crowd for their responses. Cops, soldiers, firemen...every instance is different and no one is immune to thinking twice before leaping into the hurricane.
 
VanceMack said:
I didnt respond to your comment pro or con re firearms. I commented on what I percieved as a joking comment about everyone should have a bodyguard, to which I made a light-hearted response.
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Sorry, being around here has made me a bit jumpy :)
 
Aunt Spiker said:
In such an incident people have to deal with the shock, situational awareness, emotions, so many things. They focus on that extensively in the military and still have soldiers fold in the face of the real deal.
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I find that statement unsatisfactory. I worry that we've turned into a nation of mostly-wimps.

All it takes is a little courage, a little presence of mind, and a little willpower.

I think about my father and his buddies, mostly WW2 vets. They were some tough old men, not afraid of a damn thing. Furthermore they had moral courage... the willingness to ACT on what they thought was right, even at great risk to their lives.

I know what I do when there is danger... I charge and attack. Not theory, known fact. It used to be a relatively common reaction among men, years ago.

There are so many people these days that are so caught up in themselves and their own life though, and who are so equivocal and "relative" about everything, that I'm not surprised that out of dozens of people present, only a couple responded with useful action.

I don't think excusing people's inaction with "well, you don't know how you will react" makes it any better. I think when we held men to a higher standard of courage and positive action, we were a better people for it.

Just my 0.02


Montrose' toast: "He either fears his fate too much, or his desserts are small, who dares not put it to the test, to win or lose it all."


I prefer this viewpoint...

 
Hoplite said:
Sorry, being around here has made me a bit jumpy :)
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No worries...Ive probably contributed to it a time or too myself. Sorry for that!
 
Goshin said:
I find that statement unsatisfactory. I worry that we've turned into a nation of mostly-wimps.

All it takes is a little courage, a little presence of mind, and a little willpower.

I think about my father and his buddies, mostly WW2 vets. They were some tough old men, not afraid of a damn thing. Furthermore they had moral courage... the willingness to ACT on what they thought was right, even at great risk to their lives.

I know what I do when there is danger... I charge and attack. Not theory, known fact. It used to be a relatively common reaction among men, years ago.

There are so many people these days that are so caught up in themselves and their own life though, and who are so equivocal and "relative" about everything, that I'm not surprised that out of dozens of people present, only a couple responded with useful action.

I don't think excusing people's inaction with "well, you don't know how you will react" makes it any better. I think when we held men to a higher standard of courage and positive action, we were a better people for it.

Just my 0.02


Montrose' toast: "He either fears his fate too much, or his desserts are small, who dares not put it to the test, to win or lose it all."


I prefer this viewpoint...
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The Good Rev stated something the other day that is entirely true. TELLING people what it is like to be in a combat situation isnt very effective. There are certain feelings you cant possibly adequately share...like what happens after the adreneline wears off the first time. And while I agree we have created generations people with a victim mentality (odd we are discussing this in a thread about an armed citizen that actually used judgement and ran INTO the face of danger), there are some that just arent 'built' that way and there always have been.
 
VanceMack said:
The Good Rev stated something the other day that is entirely true. TELLING people what it is like to be in a combat situation isnt very effective. There are certain feelings you cant possibly adequately share...like what happens after the adreneline wears off the first time. And while I agree we have created generations people with a victim mentality (odd we are discussing this in a thread about an armed citizen that actually used judgement and ran INTO the face of danger), there are some that just arent 'built' that way and there always have been.
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No, not everyone is cut out to be a "sheepdog". Still I think we used to have more sheepdogs and fewer sheep in previous generations, and societal expectations were geared toward men taking timely action in such situations.
 
Goshin said:
No, not everyone is cut out to be a "sheepdog". Still I think we used to have more sheepdogs and fewer sheep in previous generations, and societal expectations were geared toward men taking timely action in such situations.
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Take it a step forward...promoting maturity and responsible behaviors might just have the happy consequence of fewer of these little self important pricks committing these types of crimes.
 
Crosscheck said:
View attachment 67113378

I am planning on buying my adult daughter a Mace Pistol. It is capable of firing up to 15 times and up to 25 feet. It could incompacitate for 30-45 minutes. I like it because it is designed like a pistol so there is no doubt which direction to point it as versus the traditional pepper sprays. In this situation within a crowd one is not going to kill anybody if you accidentally hit them.
Not only does it temporary blind them it is so agonizing their hands are going to be rubbing their eyes.


Before anyone jumps to it I will admit is weak in a gun to gun battle but in many situations I belive it is superior.
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Actually, I was thinking that it might be dangerous because it looks like a gun. A cop or someone may try to stop her from shooting someone.
Otherwise, I guess it's a good idea. Maybe a really good idea for someone to have in their home if they didn't like guns. Don't know....
 
Crosscheck said:
View attachment 67113378

I am planning on buying my adult daughter a Mace Pistol. It is capable of firing up to 15 times and up to 25 feet. It could incompacitate for 30-45 minutes. I like it because it is designed like a pistol so there is no doubt which direction to point it as versus the traditional pepper sprays. In this situation within a crowd one is not going to kill anybody if you accidentally hit them.
Not only does it temporary blind them it is so agonizing their hands are going to be rubbing their eyes.

Before anyone jumps to it I will admit is weak in a gun to gun battle but in many situations I belive it is superior.
Click to expand...


I suppose it is better than nothing. I'd just caution that not all perps are incapacitated by pepperspray, nor is such incapacitation instantaneous.
 
Goshin said:
I suppose it is better than nothing. I'd just caution that not all perps are incapacitated by pepperspray, nor is such incapacitation instantaneous.
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Well that may be true.
Daughter is single mother with young son who is afraid to have real gun in house with him. So it may be the next best thing along with her baseball bat.

Really don't have much experience with the pepperspray out there but I would think once it got in the membrane of the eye it would be a huge irritant.
 
Crosscheck said:
Well that may be true.
Daughter is single mother with young son who is afraid to have real gun in house with him. So it may be the next best thing along with her baseball bat.

Really don't have much experience with the pepperspray out there but I would think once it got in the membrane of the eye it would be a huge irritant.
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Problem is deranged individuals and truly motivated criminals tend to fight through it. Ive always said...if you let them get within arms reach...bad news. There are some lethal close contact defense techniques you can employ...but I think one of the WORST things they ever did was to teach women that a key between the finger or the pointy end of a comb was a deterrent.

The main value of pepper foam is that people that would simply not carry or use a firearm have a form of defense that can be used from a distance. I wouldnt advocate relying on it to stop people, just stun them long enough to do some of that Hussein Bolt stuff and run like hell. Yelling and screaming fire along the way.
 
VanceMack said:
Problem is deranged individuals and truly motivated criminals tend to fight through it. Ive always said...if you let them get within arms reach...bad news. There are some lethal close contact defense techniques you can employ...but I think one of the WORST things they ever did was to teach women that a key between the finger or the pointy end of a comb was a deterrent.

The main value of pepper foam is that people that would simply not carry or use a firearm have a form of defense that can be used from a distance. I wouldnt advocate relying on it to stop people, just stun them long enough to do some of that Hussein Bolt stuff and run like hell. Yelling and screaming fire along the way.
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I've keyed a ****er before - trust me - it was a deterrent alright.
 
Goshin said:
I find that statement unsatisfactory. I worry that we've turned into a nation of mostly-wimps.

All it takes is a little courage, a little presence of mind, and a little willpower.

I think about my father and his buddies, mostly WW2 vets. They were some tough old men, not afraid of a damn thing. Furthermore they had moral courage... the willingness to ACT on what they thought was right, even at great risk to their lives.

I know what I do when there is danger... I charge and attack. Not theory, known fact. It used to be a relatively common reaction among men, years ago.

There are so many people these days that are so caught up in themselves and their own life though, and who are so equivocal and "relative" about everything, that I'm not surprised that out of dozens of people present, only a couple responded with useful action.

I don't think excusing people's inaction with "well, you don't know how you will react" makes it any better. I think when we held men to a higher standard of courage and positive action, we were a better people for it.

Just my 0.02


Montrose' toast: "He either fears his fate too much, or his desserts are small, who dares not put it to the test, to win or lose it all."


I prefer this viewpoint...

Click to expand...


I think we are turning into a country of wussies. I don't really know what is causing it.
Maybe the idea being put into us that we shouldn't have to fear losing our homes , not having enough to eat, getting sick without health insurance, losing our jobs. People now feel they are entitled to safety nets that will protect them from all those things. They feel they don't have to be responsible for choices they make in their lives. Oh, I don't know...
maybe it's the way we are raising our kids to be less competitive, because they get a trophy just for participating in a game. Or money is a plastic card and has no limit. If you spend too much or don't read the fine print and get screwed, the government will make legislation to punish the evil banks or credit card companies. We're all too stupid to be in charge of our own lives.
Sorry for the rambling...
 
Crosscheck said:
Well that may be true.
Daughter is single mother with young son who is afraid to have real gun in house with him. So it may be the next best thing along with her baseball bat.

Really don't have much experience with the pepperspray out there but I would think once it got in the membrane of the eye it would be a huge irritant.
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You daughter oughta start teaching the grand baby about gun safety, now. And, store the gun where he can't get to it, but she can access it quickly, if need be.

Our kids know that all my guns are loaded and aren't to be touched without permission. They may not eat their vegitables and don't pick up their rooms and the 16 y/o step daughter never comes home on time--I'm waiting for her ass, now and she's got 10 minutes, before I'm in the car and headed for the picture show to see where she's at and she knows damn-good-n-well that I'll do it--but they don't touch my guns without permission.

I personally demonstrated the effects of a .44 mag on a milk jug full of water. That got their attention, big time.

I don't like that kid she's going with anyway. I would love an excuse to beat the dog **** out of him. He's trash, just like his entire family. I hope that his old man comes over to do something about me kicking his sorry ass son's ass; I'll kick his worthless ass, too. Okay, sorry to get carried away. I'm done with that.
 
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