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Thread: Jared Loughner, Alleged Shooter in Gabrielle Giffords Attack, Described by Classmate

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    Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Actually, you love spammers.
    I figured as much, but didn't want to toss it out there, anyway that doesn't preclude him from being ignorant.
    So follow me into the desert
    As desperate as you are
    Where the moon is glued to a picture of heaven
    And all the little pigs have God

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    Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    I figured as much, but didn't want to toss it out there, anyway that doesn't preclude him from being ignorant.
    It doesn't but being a spammer defines him. Being ignorant is probably just the motivating factor.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  3. #113
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    Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Centrist View Post
    When I see those posters of Obama with a Hitler mustache I laugh and think "Someone needs to take a European History course".
    Uhm, on top of the even more blatant irony that a black man is equated with Hitler of all people. That this irony doesn't jump into the eye immediately maybe gives some hope people have indeed become a bit colorblind already.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

    Was Hitler a socialist?

    I'll just repost what I wrote earlier on that topic:

    First, it seems to be en vogue to label anything as "socialism" that's not conservative-style laissez faire capitalism. I think this use of the word doesn't do justice neither to the term "socialism", nor to the concept of a "republican, constitutional system". Nationalizing a few banks, limited regulation of the economy and social welfare systems don't make "socialism". Monarchist-conservative German Chancellor Otto von Bismarck introduced encompassing social welfare systems in the 1880's, including health insurance and public pensions. Obviously, it would be ridiculous to label Bismarck a "socialist".

    Then let's have a look at German history: The socialist party SPD (Social Democrats) was the strongest supporter of a constitutional, republican, democratic system during the Kaiserreich, and they were leading the revolution in 1918 to topple monarchy. It was mostly the socialists who established the free, republican Weimar system, along with the Christian Centrists, also for the price of making the communists their enemy. They stood strictly against communism, revolutionary Marxism from the left and fascism or restaurative, authoritarian monarchism from the right. The SPD was the only party to vote against Hitler's "Enabling Act" in 1933, because they wanted to preserve constitutional republicanism. Obviously, "socialism" and flirts with Marxism do not necessarily lead into tyranny. In fact, this brand of political ideology was the only thing that stood against the Nazis in Weimar.

    The Nazis, often considered a brand of fascism, were certainly not "socialist" in that original sense of the word. It's true they took many elements from socialism (or rather communism), but they took at least as many ideological elements from the conservative and right side of that time. For example, the main elements of Nazism that are usually closely associated with Nazism today -- militarism, anti-Semitism, racism, imperialistic ambitions -- were taken from the right of that time. It were the monarchist conservatives that had run the country on an ideology of imperialism, racial superiority, militaristic values and ambitions for world domination from 1871 to 1918, often opposed by the socialists, who had a strong internationalist and pacifist wing. That's why the Nazi Party allied with the monarchist-conservative DNVP (National-German People's Party) by the end of Weimar, and why this coalition was the one that finally brought the Nazis into power. And that's why Hitler attempted to sell the myth of a unbroken continuity -- Frederick the Great, Hindenburg, Hitler -- of German nationalism to the masses, at the "Day of Potsdam", when monarchist-conservative President Hindenburg shook hands with Hitler in public. Also, that is why the Nazis called their nation the "Third Reich" (after the "First Reich" of the Holy Roman Empire and the "Second Reich" of the monarchy from 1871 to 1918), and why they skipped the democratic colors black-red-yellow (that were en vogue among liberals, socialists and all people who supported constitutional republicanism) to replace them with the conservative-monarchist colors of black-white-red once again. The constitutional republic of Weimar was accordingly just called "the system" by the Nazis, an allegedly "socialist and democratic abberation" dominated by "socialists, Jews and democrats". The last genuine Germany, in their eyes, had been the conservative Kaiserreich.

    The Nazis did all they could to evoke the impression they continue the true conservative tradition of the authoritarian, monarchist Germany, against any attempts for liberal-constitutional revolution from the side of socialists, liberals, or democrats, and in order to do so, they allied with monarchists and conservatives. The Nazis' intellectual elite -- think of law philosopher Carl Schmitt, for example -- was recruited from the so called "conservative revolution" of the 20s, all intellectuals who opposed socialism and republicanism, but instead supported monarchist conservatism, a monarchist restauration or, in the end, Nazism. And the rabid anti-Semitism had been a specialty of the right, before the Nazis took advantage of it, often opposed by socialists who were internationalist and many of which were Jews themselves. And the militaristic "Kadavergehorsam"-authoritarianism was directly taken from the monarchist-conservative playbook, often opposed by pacifist socialists.

    But of course, Nazism was not "conservative" or "monarchist", despite these attempts. There were also many socialist elements in Nazism. But just because the Nazis copied these elements, and merged them with elements that originated from the right, doesn't mean they were "socialist" or "left". The Nazis combined elements from both right and left to appeal to as many people as possible. And I'd say the crucial bunch of ideas, which made Nazism so horrible, was not the idea of universal health care i.e. copied from the left, but the militarism, authoritarianism and anti-Semitism copied from the right.

    Also, before someone here misunderstands me, let me note that "conservatism" did mean something very different back then, than what it means today. I don't mean to smear conservatism in general. But fact it, the Nazis rode on a wave of conservative thought in 1920s' Germany, and what made them ultimately successful was their attempt at painting themselves as a bulwark against leftist ideas of republicanism, pacifism, equality and internationalism -- in an alliance with conservative monarchists.

    The socialists of that time favored equality, and eleminating barriers between different classes and nationalities. Some advocated class warfare to achieve that goal. The Nazis favored nothing of that kind: They were only in favor of equality only insofar as "Volksgenossen" were concerned, but they were strictly against the idea of equality between different nationalities or even races. They did not want class warfare, but race warfare. You may say both is equally bad, but it's obviously a different kind of animal nevertheless.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  5. #115
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    Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Was Hitler a socialist?
    Yes, Hitler was a Socialist!







    The Article:

    This article is published on the internet only. This is the version of March, 2010. This version is largely a remedial lesson in pre-war history for those who know only what they have learnt via school textbooks, popular encyclopaedias, movies etc. The article therefore does to a considerable extent go back to original sources and has to provide a lot of information that is not generally known. This does make the article rather long. For those who already know the history of the period well, however, I have kept available the June 2001 version of the article -- which is MUCH shorter. You can find it here. To make this longer version more navigable there is a clickable index at the end

    HITLER WAS A SOCIALIST



    John J. Ray (M.A.; Ph.D.)


    The Demand for Explanation


    Now that more than 60 years have passed since the military defeat of Nazi Germany, one might have thought that the name of its leader would be all but forgotten. This is far from the case, however. Even in the popular press, references to Hitler are incessant and the trickle of TV documentaries on the Germany of his era would seem to be unceasing. Hitler even featured on the cover of a 1995 Time magazine.

    This finds its counterpart in the academic literature too. Scholarly works on Hitler's deeds continue to emerge many years after his death (e.g. Feuchtwanger, 1995) and in a survey of the history of Western civilization, Lipson (1993) named Hitlerism and the nuclear bomb as the two great evils of the 20th century. Stalin's tyranny lasted longer, Pol Pot killed a higher proportion of his country's population and Hitler was not the first Fascist but the name of Hitler nonetheless hangs over the entire 20th century as something inescapably and inexplicably malign. It seems doubtful that even the whole of the 21st century will erase from the minds of thinking people the still largely unfulfilled need to understand how and why Hitler became so influential and wrought so much evil.

    The fact that so many young Germans (particular from the formerly Communist East) today still salute his name and perpetuate much of his politics is also an amazement and a deep concern to many and what can only be called the resurgence of Nazism among many young Germans at the close of the 20th century and onwards would seem to generate a continuing and pressing need to understand the Hitler phenomenon.

    So what was it that made Hitler so influential? What was it that made him (as pre-war histories such as Roberts, 1938, attest) the most popular man in the Germany of his day? Why does he still have many admirers now in the Germany on which he inflicted such disasters? What was (is?) his appeal? And why, of all things, are the young products of an East German Communist upbringing still so susceptible to his message?



    The context of Nazism.............
    .............................................
    ............................................
    You can continue to read here:

    HITLER WAS A SOCIALIST
    Rom 6:23:For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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    Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

    some additioan evidences:



    Rom 6:23:For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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    Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

    Alfons, trying to be helpful here with a suggestion, it would seriously help your credibility if you posted credible sources and not tripod links. There is a reason nobody is taking you seriously and that reason is related to a lack of intellectual rigor on the side of most of your links.

  8. #118
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    Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Alfons, trying to be helpful here with a suggestion, it would seriously help your credibility if you posted credible sources and not tripod links. There is a reason nobody is taking you seriously and that reason is related to a lack of intellectual rigor on the side of most of your links.
    Mr. Slightly Liberal,

    if you have not arguments against my information, than please stay fair.

    For all others here is the list of credibly references used in the article from above:

    ................
    REFERENCES



    Adorno,T.W., Frenkel-Brunswik, E., Levinson, D.J. & Sanford, R.N. (1950). The authoritarian personality New York: Harper.
    Ardrey, R. (1961) African genesis London: Collins
    Brown, R.(1986) Social psychology (2nd. Ed.) N.Y.: Free Press. Harper
    Bullock, A. (1964) Hitler: A study in tyranny N.Y.: Harper
    De Corte, T.L. (1978) "Menace of Undesirables: The Eugenics Movement During the Progressive Era", University of Nevada, Las Vegas.
    De Felice, R. (1977) Interpretations of Fascism Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard U.P.
    Dietrich, D.J. (1988) National renewal, anti-Semitism, and political continuity: A psychological assessment. Political Psychology 9, 385-411.
    Feuchtwanger, E.J. (1995) From Weimar to Hitler: Germany 1918-33. N.Y.: St Martin's Press.
    Fischer, C.J. (1978) The occupational background of the S.A.'s rank and file membership during the depression years , 1929 to mid-1934. In: Stachura, P. The shaping of the Nazi state. London: Croom Helm.
    Galbraith, J.K. (1969) The affluent society 2nd ed. Boston: Houghton Mifflin
    Gregor, A.J. (1979) Italian Fascism and developmental dictatorship Princeton, N.J.: Univ. Press.
    Hagan, J. (1966) Modern History and its Themes Croydon, Victoria, Australia: Longmans.
    Heiden, K. (1939) One man against Europe Harmondsworth, Mddx.: Penguin
    Herzer, I. (1989) The Italian refuge: Rescue of Jews during the holocaust Washington, D.C.: Catholic University of America Press
    Lipson, L. (1993) The ethical crises of civilization Newbury Park: Sage.
    Locke, R. (2001) Rethinking History: Were the Nazis Really Nationalists? FrontPageMagazine.com. August 28
    Madden, P. (1987) The social class origins of Nazi party members as determined by occupations, 1919-1933. Social Science Quarterly 68, 263-280.
    O'Sullivan, N. (1983) Fascism. London: Dent.
    Pickens, D. (1968) Eugenics and the Progressives. Nashville: Vanderbilt University Press
    Ray, J.J. (1984). Half of all racists are Left-wing. Political Psychology, 5, 227-236.
    Ray, J.J. & Furnham, A. (1984) Authoritarianism, conservatism and racism. Ethnic & Racial Studies 7, 406-412.
    Richmond, M. (1998) Margaret Sanger's eugenics. See here or here.
    Ritzler, B.A. (1978) The Nuremberg mind revisited: A quantitative approach. J. Personality Assessment 42, 344-353.
    Roberts, S.H. (1938) The house that Hitler built N.Y.: Harper.
    Schoeck, H. (1969) Envy: A theory of social behaviour London: Martin Secker & Warburg.
    Shirer, W.L. (1964) The rise and fall of the Third Reich London: Pan
    Skidelsky, R. (1975) Oswald Mosley London: Macmillan.
    Sniderman, P.M., Brody, R.A. & Kuklinski, J.H. (1984) Policy reasoning and political values: The problem of racial equality. American Journal of Political Science 28, 75-94.
    Steinberg, J. (1990) All or nothing: The Axis and the holocaust London: Routledge.
    Taylor, A.J.P. (1963) The origins of the second world war. Harmondsworth: Penguin.
    Toland, J. (1976) Adolf Hitler Garden City, N.Y. : Doubleday.
    Unger, A.L. (1965) Party and state in Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany. Political Quarterly 36, 441-459.
    Zillmer, E.A., Archer, R.P. & Castino, R. (1989) Rorschach records of Nazi war criminals: A reanalysis using current scoring and interpretation practices. J. Personality Assessment 53, 85-99.

    HITLER WAS A SOCIALIST
    Rom 6:23:For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

  9. #119
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    Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

    I notice Hitler was wearing pants, just like Stalin. Obviously, both are similar, and since Stalin was a socialist, Hitler must have been one too.

    But hey, I heard rumors Obama is wearing pants too. That means he is a socialist as well. Doesn't surprise me, I suspected so much.

    But this really came to me as a shock: Sarah Palin is wearing pants too, sometimes!!!! OMG!!! I don't dare to ask, but ... is she socialist too? *scared*
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfons View Post
    Mr. Slightly Liberal,

    if you have not arguments against my information, than please stay fair.
    1. How is pointing out a lack of rigor on behalf of your citations not fair?
    2. You have someone claiming to have a Ph.D. making a tripod website? This doesn't seem fishy to you especially since Ph.D.s are supposed to publish?
    3. I feel no need to counter your citations until you present ones I feel are worthy of my time, at the minimum, this means wikipedia.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 01-16-11 at 10:55 AM.

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