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Thread: Arizona Death Panel Claims Another Victim

  1. #11
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    Re: Arizona Death Panel Claims Another Victim

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    So the people of Arizona decided this persons life was not worth it


    Got it,
    How much is each person's life worth? Give me a dollar figure.
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    Re: Arizona Death Panel Claims Another Victim

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    How much is each person's life worth? Give me a dollar figure.
    To the person dieing quite alot.

    Of course this is more about death panels then what a persons life is worth. Given the outrage of Obama's death panels by many conservatives, I had thought that a conservative state would not decide to let a person die over the cost of a liver transplant
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    Re: Arizona Death Panel Claims Another Victim

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    To the person dieing quite alot.
    That's not really useful though - I'm asking for a number.

    Of course this is more about death panels then what a persons life is worth. Given the outrage of Obama's death panels by many conservatives, I had thought that a conservative state would not decide to let a person die over the cost of a liver transplant
    I'm 100% pro-death panel, so I'm not really concerned with hoe AZ chooses to allocate their limited resources. I'm mostly just wondering where you would come down on the scale. You're attacking them for saying that they couldn't afford to spend this money - how much do you think they should be spending?
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    Re: Arizona Death Panel Claims Another Victim

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    That's not really useful though - I'm asking for a number.



    I'm 100% pro-death panel, so I'm not really concerned with hoe AZ chooses to allocate their limited resources. I'm mostly just wondering where you would come down on the scale. You're attacking them for saying that they couldn't afford to spend this money - how much do you think they should be spending?
    1 billion dollars

    If the US governmengt is willing to spend hundreds of billions of dollars each year to protect american lives, should not keeping americans alive to be defended be just as worthy a cause?
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    Re: Arizona Death Panel Claims Another Victim

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    1 billion dollars

    If the US governmengt is willing to spend hundreds of billions of dollars each year to protect american lives, should not keeping americans alive to be defended be just as worthy a cause?
    No, but I assume you knew that.
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    Re: Arizona Death Panel Claims Another Victim

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    No, but I assume you knew that.
    Yes of course

    And this thread is not particularly meant for you, but those throwing the Death Panel term around, which I expect you knew that as well
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    Re: Arizona Death Panel Claims Another Victim

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Yes of course

    And this thread is not particularly meant for you, but those throwing the Death Panel term around, which I expect you knew that as well
    You're criticizing AZ because they weren't willing to spend X dollars on medical procedures for people. I'm asking you for a realistic number of how much a reasonable state should be willing to spend.
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    Re: Arizona Death Panel Claims Another Victim

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    You're criticizing AZ because they weren't willing to spend X dollars on medical procedures for people. I'm asking you for a realistic number of how much a reasonable state should be willing to spend.
    Is that what I am doing?

    Or perhaps I am pointing out that Death Panels exist prior to Obama care. Something that I know will shock some posters. That the state decided this person was not worthy of having money spent on him, that each person in Arizona felt this person was not worthy spending money on. That rationing of health care exists in socialized healthcare and in private health care. The only difference is who decides what is to be rationed or not
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    Re: Arizona Death Panel Claims Another Victim

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    Why do you oppose transplants?
    Two basic reasons that aren't even morally-involved (many people oppose have 'right or wrong' view or something of that nature - I don't. Ethically - I have no problems with transplants in certain cases . . so maybe saying 'period' is too drastic)

    1) It deters more significant advances in the healing and curing side of the medical-end of the whole issue. I honestly believe that it has become an acceptable choice or alternative to scientists/doctors and patients making a further push into actually preventing and curing said ailments.
    2) It has created a vast black-market system in some areas for those who have a significant amount of money *or* those who don't have enough - which brings harm to the innocent which overall defeats the purpose of the donation-system.

    Now - per the OP - coining this as a 'death panel' issue is misleading by far. The reality is: organ donation is EXPENSIVE and to purport that the state not only *can* but *must* pay for each and every case is extreme. It is not the state's fault that one is suffering an ailment - they cannot be blamed for the loss-of life or reduced value of life.

    The 'death panel' issue centered around *people* (one or more) actually making decisions concerning individual patients on an individual basis - case by case - to determine the course of future action - and end of life planning.
    An overall budget-cut is NOT remotely the same . . . to suggest so (as is done in the linked blog) is more ridiculous than the larger 'death panel' issue altogether.

    While they're sitting around blaming the state government - and accusing people of being selfish. Why aren't they pointing fingers at the hospital itself? Could it have swallowed the cost of *two* patients seeing as how the program was cut from 99 to 97?

    Why aren't they to blame? Why aren't they at fault? They're the ones actually letting money interfere with saving a life - violating their oath, are they not? (ok - so I don't think so either but if one's willing to blame the state government then they might as well go all-out and blame the hospital, too).

    Further misleading is the author's assumption that the two which have died would have lived long enough to receive a transplant.
    Why were they dropped? What number did they rank on the list? #1 = next in line? or #99 and #98?
    Did a donation come through - and go to someone else on the list rather than them?

    The link provides none of that information - therefor making it impossible to actually decide what could have been done to save them (if anything).

    The Arizona budget that previously provided transplants to people in need was $1.4 million. As there were 99 people on the waiting list for transplants at the time the cuts went into effect, the net result is that the State of Arizona valued each of these lives at something less than $14,000 a person.
    This is all we have cost wise to debate. What does this tell us? nothing, really - was the $1.4 million a yearly budget? is $1.4 million actualy spent every cycle ON transplants? If there were only 99 people on the list why would $1.4 million (yes - that's $14,000 ish per person IF this is paid out every year and IF that goes to exactly 99 people EVERY year) - so - is that HIGH or is that LOW? Where is all that cost going? How much is waste, excess - where could they have actually reduced cost *to* the government in this?

    What if - within a year - only 20 people receive a transplant - does the government still GIVE them 1.4Million?
    If yes - where does the extra go if it's not applied to transplant surgeries and recovery costs, etc?
    If no (and they pay out ONLY the cost per patient - and *no more* than $1.4 million total throughout the course of a year for the program) then WHY is there even a problem? They couldn't reduce the cost of the procedure at all to make the newly adjusted budget work for everyone (which is how much? The article doesn't tell us this).

    so - this case is smoke. It is nothing but someone ignoring facts and details for the sake of blaming the government rather than the many other people who are also just as 'guilty'
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    Re: Arizona Death Panel Claims Another Victim

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Is that what I am doing?
    You quoted this:

    Tucson University Medical Center has confirmed that a patient who was refused a liver transplant due to Arizona Governor Jan Brewer’s decision to cut the state benefit that would have made the transplant possible, has died. The patient had been scheduled for the needed transplant but was dropped from the waiting list on October 1st when the cuts went into effect.
    Please allow the preceding paragraph to sink into your consciousness for a moment.

    The Arizona budget that previously provided transplants to people in need was $1.4 million. As there were 99 people on the waiting list for transplants at the time the cuts went into effect, the net result is that the State of Arizona valued each of these lives at something less than $14,000 a person.
    in your OP. I assumed that you were talking about the amount of money that AZ was spending on transplants.

    Or perhaps I am pointing out that Death Panels exist prior to Obama care. Something that I know will shock some posters. That the state decided this person was not worthy of having money spent on him, that each person in Arizona felt this person was not worthy spending money on. That rationing of health care exists in socialized healthcare and in private health care. The only difference is who decides what is to be rationed or not
    I might just be pissing into the wind, but I think a large part of the objections to the concept of "death panels" is associated with the fact that many believe that the expansion of government insurance that some dems want would push private insurance out of the market, making the government's "death panels" a person's last resort for getting health care. That is very different from the current system, where people can obtain private insurance that would also cover the things in the OP. Accordingly, I think there's a pretty substantial distinction that is being glossed over.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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