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Thread: In New York City, 41% of pregnancies aborted

  1. #181
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    Re: In New York City, 41% of pregnancies aborted

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    Let me get this straight... Are you saying that Conservatives NEVER use death to create a fear atmosphere, or is this just another of your pointless political gotchas?

    ricksfolly
    Political gotchas? Conservatives never use death to create a fear atmosphere? What the hell is this? I have no idea what you are refering to. Want to try again?
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  2. #182
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    Re: In New York City, 41% of pregnancies aborted

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    That's the real point: I might think abortion is wrong, you might think so, too, but what right does the government have to impose those values on everyone else? It's much like making a law prohibiting adultery, fornication, or smoking pot. Such laws can't be enforced anyway.
    I'm speaking of cultural norms. My culture places value on children. I place value on children. I tend to view children as a resource, one of our better ones. The government should represent the values of the people they purport to represent. This government is representing your culture and your cultural norms. Not mine.



    Meaning what? Poor people? As long as the government isn't making the choice, then no one is imposing population control on anyone else, and can't control specific populations. It is an individual choice, one that the individual has to live with afterward. Again, I'd think that a conservative would agree that it is the individual, and not the government, that should be in control.
    Meaning the wrong kinds of people. margaret sanger the "father" of abortion in america was an early proponent of eugenics.



    Really? I'd think that a conservative leaning guy like you would want to link responsibility to authority, at least as a general principle.
    I'm a classical liberal. I believe governments should serve the needs, wants and aspirations of their people. I'm unsure what you mean by "responsibility to authority."
    Last edited by Dutch; 01-22-11 at 06:49 PM.
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  3. #183
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    Re: In New York City, 41% of pregnancies aborted

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    I'm speaking of cultural norms. My culture places value on children. I place value on children. I tend to view children as a resource, one of our better ones. The government should represent the values of the people they purport to represent. This government is representing your culture and your cultural norms. Not mine.






    Meaning the wrong kinds of people. margaret sanger the "father" of abortion in america was an early proponent of eugenics.





    I'm a classical liberal. I believe governments should serve the needs, wants and aspirations of their people. I'm unsure what you mean by "responsibility to authority."

    I wish no government funds were allowed for abortions.
    Also after watching the video, I got to thinking. I'm wondering if the protesters outside abortions clinics with their hateful signs about murder etc, couldn't do something more effective. What if they were out there with signs that say nice things like "we're here to help" "There is another choice" and really mean it. There are so many people looking to adopt. There are also places willing to help with many things like food, clothes, diapers, parenting classes, etc for up to at least toddler age. I donate to a place like that. If the protesters came armed with alternatives and answers they might be able to save some of those children. Just a thought. I never saw much good of pro-lifer's out there demonizing the women going into the clinics.
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  4. #184
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    Re: In New York City, 41% of pregnancies aborted

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    I wish no government funds were allowed for abortions.
    Also after watching the video, I got to thinking. I'm wondering if the protesters outside abortions clinics with their hateful signs about murder etc, couldn't do something more effective. What if they were out there with signs that say nice things like "we're here to help" "There is another choice" and really mean it. There are so many people looking to adopt. There are also places willing to help with many things like food, clothes, diapers, parenting classes, etc for up to at least toddler age. I donate to a place like that. If the protesters came armed with alternatives and answers they might be able to save some of those children. Just a thought. I never saw much good of pro-lifer's out there demonizing the women going into the clinics.
    I couldn't agree more. I believe men like thoreau, martin luther king and gandhi among many others have much to teach us, if only we would learn from them.
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    Re: In New York City, 41% of pregnancies aborted

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    I'm speaking of cultural norms. My culture places value on children. I place value on children. I tend to view children as a resource, one of our better ones. The government should represent the values of the people they purport to represent. This government is representing your culture and your cultural norms. Not mine.
    I've already said that abortion doesn't have a place in my culture. Maybe you missed it, or maybe you didn't believe me. Abortion is the wrong choice, nearly every time. However:

    You and I don't have the right to impose our values on the rest of society, and
    Laws that can't be enforced (see above) cause more problems than they solve.




    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    Meaning the wrong kinds of people. margaret sanger the "father" of abortion in america was an early proponent of eugenics.
    OK, so does that mean that the purpose of legalizing abortion was eugenics?





    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    I'm a classical liberal. I believe governments should serve the needs, wants and aspirations of their people. I'm unsure what you mean by "responsibility to authority."
    I said "linking" responsibility to authority. In other words, the person who has the authority to choose takes the responsibility for the results of that choice.
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  6. #186
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    Re: In New York City, 41% of pregnancies aborted

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    I've already said that abortion doesn't have a place in my culture. Maybe you missed it, or maybe you didn't believe me. Abortion is the wrong choice, nearly every time. However:

    You and I don't have the right to impose our values on the rest of society, and
    Laws that can't be enforced (see above) cause more problems than they solve.
    I'm not arguing I get to stop abortions in the northeast. I'm arguing for the right of the people of each state to decide this issue for themselves. Roe v wade was wrong in that this is an issue far too important for the supremes to decide for us. Let the people make this determination. If the people of the northeast and west coast want to immolate themselves, so be it. Let the inhabitants of the flyover states decide what is best for ourselves.


    OK, so does that mean that the purpose of legalizing abortion was eugenics?
    That means the early proponents of abortion were also believers in eugenics. If ginsburg is anything to go by the american left hasn't come that far from it's beginnings.







    I said "linking" responsibility to authority. In other words, the person who has the authority to choose takes the responsibility for the results of that choice.
    I'm all about personal responsibility. Killing the life you create, isn't responsible. It just isn't.
    Last edited by Dutch; 01-23-11 at 11:01 AM.
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    Re: In New York City, 41% of pregnancies aborted

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    I'm not arguing I get to stop abortions in the northeast. I'm arguing for the right of the people of each state to decide this issue for themselves. Roe v wade was wrong in that this is an issue far too important for the supremes to decide for us. Let the people make this determination. If the people of the northeast and west coast want to immolate themselves, so be it. Let the inhabitants of the flyover states decide what is best for ourselves.
    OK, so the states need to make the decision, rather than the individuals. I wonder how those "flyover" states will enforce the law? How will they stop illegal abortions? How will they keep women from hopping a plane to a state where it is legal?

    Just passing a law against something doesn't stop it. If it did, we wouldn't have any drug abusers to deal with.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    That means the early proponents of abortion were also believers in eugenics. If ginsburg is anything to go by the american left hasn't come that far from it's beginnings.
    Being a "proponent of abortion" is quite different from being a proponent of individual choice.




    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    I'm all about personal responsibility. Killing the life you create, isn't responsible. It just isn't.
    I agree.

    Now, how can we pass a law requiring that people be responsible?
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    Re: In New York City, 41% of pregnancies aborted

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    OK, so the states need to make the decision, rather than the individuals. I wonder how those "flyover" states will enforce the law? How will they stop illegal abortions? How will they keep women from hopping a plane to a state where it is legal?

    Just passing a law against something doesn't stop it. If it did, we wouldn't have any drug abusers to deal with.
    Based on this post you seem to believe we cannot have any laws for any reasons. D-head meet chaos monster.






    Being a "proponent of abortion" is quite different from being a proponent of individual choice.
    Look, history is what it is. The early progressives were racists. Abortion and eugenics, flows from the same well, that of controlling sub-populations. The very fact that blacks represent some 40% of all abortions and sangers old organization planned parenthood targeting black neighborhoods should give anyone pause. It does me. Why not american liberals/leftists?



    I agree.

    Now, how can we pass a law requiring that people be responsible?
    We have and enforce laws against killing people now. People sometimes break them. Prosecute them. That's the main reason I never killed my worthless brother in law. It isn't perfect but it's an imperfect world.
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    Re: In New York City, 41% of pregnancies aborted

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    Based on this post you seem to believe we cannot have any laws for any reasons. D-head meet chaos monster.
    That isn't what I said.

    Laws that govern personal choices can't be enforced. We tried at one point to outlaw abortion, based on the religious conviction that life begins at conception. Not everyone agreed, and the law couldn't be enforced. We tried to outlaw alcohol, based on the quite supportable conviction that alcohol consumption is overall not a good choice. Most people didn't agree, so that law couldn't be enforced. We are trying to outlaw pot smoking even now, based on the also supportable idea that it probably is a poor choice as well. That law can't be enforced. Were we to try to pass a law against adultery, which most of us know is a poor choice, that one couldn't be enforced either. We can't stop people from making poor choices by passing laws.

    All of which doesn't mean we can't pass laws against murder, robbery, assault, and so on. Those are crimes regardless of what the law says, and have to be stopped by force.






    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    Look, history is what it is. The early progressives were racists. Abortion and eugenics, flows from the same well, that of controlling sub-populations. The very fact that blacks represent some 40% of all abortions and sangers old organization planned parenthood targeting black neighborhoods should give anyone pause. It does me. Why not american liberals/leftists?
    Because there is no law encouraging people from black neighborhoods to have abortions. There is no law encouraging anyone to have an abortion. It is an individual decision.

    Interestingly enough, pot prohibition was based on racism also.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    We have and enforce laws against killing people now. People sometimes break them. Prosecute them. That's the main reason I never killed my worthless brother in law. It isn't perfect but it's an imperfect world.
    Killing your worthless brother in law would go beyond being a poor choice. Murder is a crime, and the law just reinforces what we all know, that murder is a crime.

    Still, if you think you can get away with it.... no, that's not a good idea, either.
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  10. #190
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    Re: In New York City, 41% of pregnancies aborted

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    That isn't what I said.

    Laws that govern personal choices can't be enforced. We tried at one point to outlaw abortion, based on the religious conviction that life begins at conception. Not everyone agreed, and the law couldn't be enforced. We tried to outlaw alcohol, based on the quite supportable conviction that alcohol consumption is overall not a good choice. Most people didn't agree, so that law couldn't be enforced. We are trying to outlaw pot smoking even now, based on the also supportable idea that it probably is a poor choice as well. That law can't be enforced. Were we to try to pass a law against adultery, which most of us know is a poor choice, that one couldn't be enforced either. We can't stop people from making poor choices by passing laws.
    If it's a comparison you want just look at murder. Murder is illegal. People still commit it. People are prosecuted for it. What we don't have is 50 million murders in america since 73. Laws prohibiting some behaviors do tend to discourage those behaviors. Why pretend laws discouraging abortions won't do just that.


    All of which doesn't mean we can't pass laws against murder, robbery, assault, and so on. Those are crimes regardless of what the law says, and have to be stopped by force.
    ......and the deaths of 50 million of our own?







    Because there is no law encouraging people from black neighborhoods to have abortions. There is no law encouraging anyone to have an abortion. It is an individual decision.
    No, however, apparently, they can be influenced to do so. It's the values your culture has that determines how many or even if you have children. I'm guessing it's the same with abortion. I'm thinking the black community should consider a rethink on this issue. Perhaps they should stop listening to the liberal/leftists.


    source
    ....... In Utah, where more than two-thirds of residents are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 92 children are born each year for every 1,000 women, the highest fertility rate in the nation. By contrast Vermont the first to embrace gay unions has the nation's lowest rate, producing 51 children per 1,000 women.

    Similarly, in Europe today, the people least likely to have children are those most likely to hold progressive views of the world. For instance, do you distrust the army and other institutions and are you prone to demonstrate against them? Then, according to polling data assembled by demographers Ron Lesthaeghe and Johan Surkyn, you are less likely to be married and have kids or ever to get married and have kids. Do you find soft drugs, homosexuality and euthanasia acceptable? Do you seldom, if ever, attend church? Europeans who answer affirmatively to such questions are far more likely to live alone or be in childless, cohabiting unions than are those who answer negatively.......



    Interestingly enough, pot prohibition was based on racism also.
    I prefer to think of this as a cultural difference as opposed to race.

    Killing your worthless brother in law would go beyond being a poor choice. Murder is a crime, and the law just reinforces what we all know, that murder is a crime.

    Still, if you think you can get away with it.... no, that's not a good idea, either.
    The only difference between killing someone in the womb and my worthless brother in law is the occupant of the womb is innocent of any wrong doing. I can't say the same for my worthless brother in law. Oh, that and one is state sanctioned and one isn't.
    Last edited by Dutch; 01-23-11 at 06:32 PM.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

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