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Thread: Could Senate Dems Nuke the Filibuster?

  1. #21
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    Re: Could Senate Dems Nuke the Filibuster?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    There is a growing movement among conservatives to have it removed. There is also a small group (and growing) to only allow land owners to vote and other anti-democratic proposals... all on the US right.
    The United States was founded by the states as a republic. The states stupidly gave up the power that was given to them as a part of the Constitution with the 17th Amendment. No changing that.

    There is no significant movement to restore the franchise to white, male, landowners... just a fringe group...

    Nice try, though...
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    Re: Could Senate Dems Nuke the Filibuster?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    There is a growing movement among conservatives to have it removed. There is also a small group (and growing) to only allow land owners to vote and other anti-democratic proposals... all on the US right.
    I haven't seen this as an important issue since the early 19th century.......
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    Re: Could Senate Dems Nuke the Filibuster?

    The Senate was DESIGNED to be slow, hard to pass things through and easy for one Senator, one state, one small group to stand up and bring the whole thing to a crawl.

    It's the art of compromise that was demanded with the Senate. I know people don't want to understand that, to consider it. It's so much easier to use the bumpersticker logic slogans of "What's wrong with 51 votes?"

    What's wrong is that isn't what the Senate is about. Learn to understand WHY things are the way they are before you demand they change. So few here on either side understand the WHY. And we all know that if the Dem's managed to cahnge this, teh moment they are out of power and unable to Filibuster something that's near and dear to them all hell will break loose in the media. "The Tyrannical Republicans...."
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Could Senate Dems Nuke the Filibuster?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    The United States was founded by the states as a republic.
    Yes but has since evolved into much more like a democracy where no one is left out. The US was founded on the back bone of slavery and only giving a limited number of the male white population the right to vote. Things change.

    The states stupidly gave up the power that was given to them as a part of the Constitution with the 17th Amendment.
    Stupidly? Hardly, the US became more democratic. This means changes and means you cant just have the few appoint the representation of the whole population.

    No changing that.
    And yet there are some on the right that DO want to get rid of the 17th. You can not deny that and many of those who want to repeal the 17th are in the Tea Party (and that does not mean all...). You can not deny this also.

    From one part of the right wing media machine

    Restoring Federalism: Repeal the Seventeenth Amendment - Big Government

    or from your favourite source

    Republican Candidates Call for Repeal of Seventeenth Amendment - FoxNews.com

    or from a local rag

    2theadvocate.com | News | GOP candidates meet in debate — Baton Rouge, LA

    Both, for instance, would repeal the constitutional amendment that allows direct election of U.S. senators.
    or the tea party fav in Alaska Joe "the looser" Miller

    44 - Joe Miller: I'd back repeal of 17th amendment

    or even the most pathetic fanatical right wing Supreme Court judge is for it

    Justice Scalia Says 17th Amendment Was Mistake For States Rights | MyFDL

    and finally

    Tea Party pushes 17th Amendment to the forefront - The Hill's Ballot Box

    The issue has already made its way into the races of at least two of the GOP's top 10 House recruits, and one of them has already stumbled over it.
    There is much more out there.. just google it.

    There is no significant movement to restore the franchise to white, male, landowners... just a fringe group...
    But there is a movement, which was my point .. and this movement is squared on the right of the political spectrum. It is also a view that has been floated by several members of this board.. all right wingers.

    Nice try, though...
    Try of what.. facts are facts.. all the smoke and mirrors from you and and other right wingers wont change the facts. And ignoring and denying it will not help at all.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Could Senate Dems Nuke the Filibuster?

    The 17th Amendment WAS a mistake, and should be repealed.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Could Senate Dems Nuke the Filibuster?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    There is a growing movement among conservatives to have it removed. There is also a small group (and growing) to only allow land owners to vote and other anti-democratic proposals... all on the US right.
    First of all, you can't remove an amendment, it has to be repealed. Secondly, there is a growing movement of non-progressives to have the 17th amendment repealed. Nice try though Pete, next time do some homework before you speak of what you do not know.
    Welfare (Food Stamps, WIC, etc...) are not entitlements. They are taxpayer funded handouts and shouldn't be called entitlements at all. Social Security and Veteran's benefits are 'Entitlements' because the people receiving them are entitled to them. They were earned and paid for by the recipients.

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    Re: Could Senate Dems Nuke the Filibuster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Actually now is probably a good time to get rid of the filibuster, because neither party would overwhelmingly benefit from it. Anything the Democrats tried to ram through the Senate on a party-line vote would be dead on arrival in the Republican-controlled House. Similarly, if the Republicans tried to pick off a few conservative Senate Democrats and ram through right-wing legislation, President Obama would veto it.

    This may be the best time to reform it precisely because the new Congress will need to work together anyway. The filibuster (at least as it's used now) is antithetical to a functional legislative branch.
    You are thinking way too small here. Sure, removing the filibuster may work now, but how about 2 years from now when Republicans most likely re-gain control of the WH and the Senate? What about if in 10 years the Democrats regain control of the WH and both houses? What works today won't work down the road. Do you really want a Republican controlled WH, Senate and House? I know I don't. I've always said it was a bad idea when one "side" has control of both. Early on in the Bush administration and the first two years of the Obama administration have proven that for all to see. If you remove the filibuster, whoever is in power can just ram through whatever legislation they want to. Is this what anyone really wants as a whole? I can see the case being made when "their side" is in control, but what about when the pendulum swings the other way?
    Welfare (Food Stamps, WIC, etc...) are not entitlements. They are taxpayer funded handouts and shouldn't be called entitlements at all. Social Security and Veteran's benefits are 'Entitlements' because the people receiving them are entitled to them. They were earned and paid for by the recipients.

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    Re: Could Senate Dems Nuke the Filibuster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh_Akston View Post
    Could Senate Dems Nuke the Filibuster? - FoxNews.com



    And the Progressive's destruction of America and it's founders' intentions continues... When will it end?
    When Lenin's tomb sits on the WH lawn.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Could Senate Dems Nuke the Filibuster?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    The Senate was DESIGNED to be slow, hard to pass things through and easy for one Senator, one state, one small group to stand up and bring the whole thing to a crawl.
    No it wasn't. The Senate was not designed so that every bill was filibustered by default, requiring a 60 vote supermajority. If it was, then that would have been written into the Constitution. Furthermore, the filibuster isn't even a time-honored tradition. It was rarely used at all before the civil rights era, and even then it wasn't used very frequently until the 1990s.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio
    It's the art of compromise that was demanded with the Senate. I know people don't want to understand that, to consider it. It's so much easier to use the bumpersticker logic slogans of "What's wrong with 51 votes?"
    I can tell you exactly what's wrong with 60 votes. It means that there will rarely be a consensus on how to solve our nation's problems, ensuring that nothing ever gets done. Look at California, where there is a gap between the majority and the supermajority. There aren't enough votes to raise taxes and there aren't enough votes to cut spending, so the state has a huge deficit. Either low taxes/spending or high taxes/spending would be preferable to the mess California now finds themselves in...but the gridlock has ensured that they can't make a decision and has made it impossible to solve the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio
    What's wrong is that isn't what the Senate is about. Learn to understand WHY things are the way they are before you demand they change. So few here on either side understand the WHY. And we all know that if the Dem's managed to cahnge this, teh moment they are out of power and unable to Filibuster something that's near and dear to them all hell will break loose in the media. "The Tyrannical Republicans...."
    It's not like the Democrats are going to hugely benefit right now from getting rid of the filibuster anyway, so I don't see why you need to make this a partisan issue. The filibuster is bad for democracy and it's bad for practical reasons. We may as well get rid of it now, when no one stands to gain a huge partisan advantage from it.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-04-11 at 05:08 PM.
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    Re: Could Senate Dems Nuke the Filibuster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh_Akston View Post
    You are thinking way too small here. Sure, removing the filibuster may work now, but how about 2 years from now when Republicans most likely re-gain control of the WH and the Senate? What about if in 10 years the Democrats regain control of the WH and both houses?
    Well, if the voters gave a single party a huge mandate in Congress and the White House, then I don't see why that's a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh_Akston
    What works today won't work down the road. Do you really want a Republican controlled WH, Senate and House? I know I don't.
    No, but if that's what the voters want I don't see why the minority party should be awarded more influence than the voters think they are due.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh_Akston
    I've always said it was a bad idea when one "side" has control of both. Early on in the Bush administration and the first two years of the Obama administration have proven that for all to see. If you remove the filibuster, whoever is in power can just ram through whatever legislation they want to. Is this what anyone really wants as a whole? I can see the case being made when "their side" is in control, but what about when the pendulum swings the other way?
    If the ruling party passes extreme legislation, the voters will toss them out in the next election and a more moderate Congress will adjust accordingly. Furthermore, the Senate rarely used the filibuster for the first 200 years of its existence, and we only occasionally had issues with Congress undoing all the legislation of the previous Congress. For the most part, they just tinkered with it or built on it, but it's pretty unusual in our nation's history to see Congresses radically departing from their predecessors' legislation, who themselves undid their predecessors' legislation, etc.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-04-11 at 05:09 PM.
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