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Kiss your 100-watt lightbulb goodbye

Jerry said:
No I realize that Glenn Beck is not posing in this thread. It was your post #363 which tried to dismiss my argument as kook conspiracy. Now you're trying to change your argument and say it occurs all the time. Well which is it?
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It is a kook conspiracy to think that a utility turning off service during an emergency is doing something they do not already have authority to do. Its the same thing I have been saying.



Discontinuing service is one thing (and no, a utility can't discontinue at-will unless your contract specifies such, non of mine do), a legal mandate to place a device in your home to control that service is another. It's the difference between your car insurance choosing to drop you and your car insurance installing a tracking device which can override your control of the vehicle. The DP mod team can choose to ban you, but not place a program inside your PC override your use of that PC
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Where did you get the "at-will" part? The language in the proposed regulations you linked, which did not pass as I understand it, stated "during an emergency," which is the same authority they have had since before you were born.
 
Catawba said:
Which is more cost effective for a utility, being able to discontinue service during an emergency electronically or having to have a man climb a pole and turn off the transformer switch? Should utilities also have not switched to computerized billing, so they could continue manual billing that cost them and you more money?
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Except this has nothing to do with discontinuing service....:roll:

Do you actually think turning down/up a thermostat, or even turning the HVAC system off remotely "discontinues" the house electrical service ???? What about all the other appliances, lights, electronics in the house.

You should really think before hitting the submit button next time.
 
Gill said:
Except this has nothing to do with discontinuing service....:roll:

Do you actually think turning down/up a thermostat, or even turning the HVAC system off remotely "discontinues" the house electrical service ???? What about all the other appliances, lights, electronics in the house.

You should really think before hitting the submit button next time.
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So you would prefer that instead of just turning back on your heat or AC during an emergency, that they turn off your power completely?
 
Catawba said:
So you would prefer that instead of just turning back on your heat or AC during an emergency, that they turn off your power completely?
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What possible benefit is there to turning off the HVAC during an emergency while leaving the electricity on to the rest of the house ????

Explain that !
 
Gill said:
What possible benefit is there to turning off the HVAC during an emergency while leaving the electricity on to the rest of the house ????

Explain that !
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I'm assuming it has to do with the fact that many blackouts occur because of all the AC units that are on full blast in the summer. It's like that here in Chicago on really hot days. It looks like this is one of those things where they are trying to avoid a full shut down, while also dealing with the emergency by decreasing the load.

Granted, that is an assumption on my part.
 
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Tucker Case said:
I'm assuming it has to do with the fact that many blackouts occur because of all the AC units that are on full blast in the summer. It's like that here in Chicago on really hot days. It looks like this is one of those things where they are trying to avoid a full shut down, while also dealing with the emergency by decreasing the load.

Granted, that is an assumption on my part.
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Yes, I absolutely think you are right. However, I don't think they have that right. How do they know if a sick relative is not staying in the house and has to be kept warm or cool ? How do they know if the homeowner has pets that must be kept at certain temperatures, or plants, or an aquarium. What if there is a baby in the house ??

These are things that someone from the state or utility company have no way of knowing. They can request that the thermostat be turned up or down, but it is up to the homeowner to determine if that is reasonable in their particular circumstance.
 
Gill said:
Yes, I absolutely think you are right. However, I don't think they have that right. How do they know if a sick relative is not staying in the house and has to be kept warm or cool ? How do they know if the homeowner has pets that must be kept at certain temperatures, or plants, or an aquarium. What if there is a baby in the house ??

These are things that someone from the state or utility company have no way of knowing. They can request that the thermostat be turned up or down, but it is up to the homeowner to determine if that is reasonable in their particular circumstance.
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But if they shut off the power altogether, wouldn't it be worse for the sick relatives, babies, etc?

From what I gather, this is an option for them to prevent full shut downs. Like that would be the alternative to controlling the thermostat.
 
Tucker Case said:
But if they shut off the power altogether, wouldn't it be worse for the sick relatives, babies, etc?

From what I gather, this is an option for them to prevent full shut downs. Like that would be the alternative to controlling the thermostat.
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Very well put Tucker. When I worked for a water utility, I always hated turning off water to large segments of the service area due to water main breaks. I think it is a positive thing to be a able to just reduce a person's usage rather than having to shut them down completely during an emergency.
 
Catawba said:
It is a kook conspiracy to think that a utility turning off service during an emergency is doing something they do not already have authority to do. Its the same thing I have been saying.
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They never had the authority to control a utility from inside the home. That is what's new, that's the problem. The threshold of your doorway is a significant legal boundary. Utility control had to always reside outside the structure, and even then it was merely to activate or disable the service, not micromanage it's use.

Catawba said:
The language in the proposed regulations you linked, which did not pass as I understand it, stated "during an emergency," which is the same authority they have had since before you were born.
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They've never had the authority to force a reduction of your usage from inside your home, which is why they need to establish that new authority now using easy-to-pass bull**** regulations on light-bulbs.

It's the difference between capping how much fuel you can buy and installing a governor on your car engine. Crossing the threshold and entering the home is a critical difference between the authority they've always had and what they're trying to do now.

If power needs to be micromanaged, then any control needs to be outside the home....say, on the transformer, for example.
 
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Gill said:
Yes, I absolutely think you are right. However, I don't think they have that right. How do they know if a sick relative is not staying in the house and has to be kept warm or cool ? How do they know if the homeowner has pets that must be kept at certain temperatures, or plants, or an aquarium. What if there is a baby in the house ??

These are things that someone from the state or utility company have no way of knowing. They can request that the thermostat be turned up or down, but it is up to the homeowner to determine if that is reasonable in their particular circumstance.
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Rolling black-outs are an attempt to avoid a full grid shut down. The wind farms just can't handle the work load.

Nuke plants, however, can; as can coal plants. So first the environmentalists tell us we can't build nuke/coal plants, and then they want to install controls inside our homes because the system can't handle the load.
 
Catawba said:
Very well put Tucker. When I worked for a water utility, I always hated turning off water to large segments of the service area due to water main breaks. I think it is a positive thing to be a able to just reduce a person's usage rather than having to shut them down completely during an emergency.
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The best answer is to increase the power supply. Then you don't have blackouts or government controlled thermostats.
 
Jerry said:
Rolling black-outs are an attempt to avoid a full grid shut down. The wind farms just can't handle the work load.

Nuke plants, however, can; as can coal plants. So first the environmentalists tell us we can't build nuke/coal plants, and then they want to install controls inside our homes because the system can't handle the load.
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Illinois is all nuke power and we rarely have to deal with blackouts in the summer. It happens occasionaly, but usually it only happens when something breaks.
 
Tucker Case said:
But if they shut off the power altogether, wouldn't it be worse for the sick relatives, babies, etc?

From what I gather, this is an option for them to prevent full shut downs. Like that would be the alternative to controlling the thermostat.
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I don't think its an either/or situation. The amount of electricity used to heat/cool houses is infestimal when compared to commercial uses of power. If they really wanted to cut power use to prevent blackouts, they would be demanding thermostat controls on retail and office buildings, instead of single family homes.
 
Jerry said:
The best answer is to increase the power supply. Then you don't have blackouts or government controlled thermostats.
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It's cheaper to behave responsibly and save the resources wasted to produce excessive power.
 
Gill said:
I don't think its an either/or situation. The amount of electricity used to heat/cool houses is infestimal when compared to commercial uses of power. If they really wanted to cut power use to prevent blackouts, they would be demanding thermostat controls on retail and office buildings, instead of single family homes.
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I thought that the bill Jerry linked was regarding both residential and non-residential? I could be completely wrong on it, since I didn't read all of it, only skimmed it.
 
Tucker Case said:
I thought that the bill Jerry linked was regarding both residential and non-residential? I could be completely wrong on it, since I didn't read all of it, only skimmed it.
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You are correct, but it only applies to unitary units and those not controlled by central control systems. Most retail and commercial buildings don't use unitary units and most are controlled centrally. For instance, all Wal-Mart HVAC equipment is controlled centrally from Benton, AR. Store managers can't change the HVAC temperature in their stores.

I can see these thermostats being faked or fixed so they can't receive the FM signal. For instance, you could probably wrap aluminum foil around the internal receiver and prevent it from receiving signals. I also could see people changing the thermostats out as soon as the building/house has passed inspection.
 
Jerry said:
If power needs to be micromanaged, then any control needs to be outside the home....say, on the transformer, for example.
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How exactly would they reduce the load from your AC from outside the home?
 
Gill said:
You are correct, but it only applies to unitary units and those not controlled by central control systems. Most retail and commercial buildings don't use unitary units and most are controlled centrally. For instance, all Wal-Mart HVAC equipment is controlled centrally from Benton, AR. Store managers can't change the HVAC temperature in their stores.
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I didn't know that. Very interesting. Thanks. Smart business move to have total control over their energy costs nationwide.

Out of pure curiosity and as an aside, do they have some standards by which they set the thermostats for their stores?

I can see these thermostats being faked or fixed so they can't receive the FM signal. For instance, you could probably wrap aluminum foil around the internal receiver and prevent it from receiving signals. I also could see people changing the thermostats out as soon as the building/house has passed inspection.
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Good point. I wonder if the changing of the thermostats would be noticed considering the remote link?

I also agree that they should focus on retail and office buildings instead of residential if their goal is to control the blackouts without doing as Jerry csuggested and going with a better energy source.
 
Catawba said:
Politics is not a factor in the bell shaped curve of an oil well's production.
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when a state comes and shuts your well down, or tells you that you cannot make more or explore more, that certainly has an effect on production. not recognizing this is a fatal mistake.
 
Tucker Case said:
I didn't know that. Very interesting. Thanks. Smart business move to have total control over their energy costs nationwide.

Out of pure curiosity and as an aside, do they have some standards by which they set the thermostats for their stores?



Good point. I wonder if the changing of the thermostats would be noticed considering the remote link?

I also agree that they should focus on retail and office buildings instead of residential if their goal is to control the blackouts without doing as Jerry csuggested and going with a better energy source.
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I'm sure they have very strict standards, along with a lot of sensors throughout the stores. Lighting is also controlled in Benton. Most Wal-Marts and Sam's, along with Home Depots and Lowes have a lot of skylights built into them now. During the day, less internal lighting is needed. Of course more is needed if it is cloudy, so more lights come on. Don't know if someone is actually controlling them, but more likely it is all controlled by sensors. Those are the retail stores I've worked with the most, but I'm sure they all do it.

Not sure about the thermostats. Its possible, I guess that they could be designed to report a problem if they were tampered with.
 
Gill said:
I'm sure they have very strict standards, along with a lot of sensors throughout the stores. Lighting is also controlled in Benton. Most Wal-Marts and Sam's, along with Home Depots and Lowes have a lot of skylights built into them now. During the day, less internal lighting is needed. Of course more is needed if it is cloudy, so more lights come on. Don't know if someone is actually controlling them, but more likely it is all controlled by sensors. Those are the retail stores I've worked with the most, but I'm sure they all do it.

Not sure about the thermostats. Its possible, I guess that they could be designed to report a problem if they were tampered with.
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Makes sense that most, if not all, of the bigger places do that now. If that technology exists, it's stupid not to.
 
Zyroh said:
when a state comes and shuts your well down, or tells you that you cannot make more or explore more, that certainly has an effect on production. not recognizing this is a fatal mistake.
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There is no evidence this has been responsible for the US passing peak oil in this country in 1971. The oil executives themselves have stated in the ETF Report that being independent from foreign sources is not possible with the demand for oil in the US.
 
I wonder if house fires and burnt fingers will dramatically increase in a few years due to this new requirement ???

I also wonder how many people will complain about the life of these halogen bulbs when they quickly burn out because they touched them with their fingers.
 
Manc Skipper said:
It's cheaper to behave responsibly and save the resources wasted to produce excessive power.
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I would like to offer an honest and sincere disagreement.

The cheapest answer is to bring the insulation up to standard; especially on homes older than 15-20 years as that's when roof leaks inside wall cavities tend to start complicating the issue. If you took all the little cracks and holes in your typical 10-15 year old single story home for a family of 4 and put them in one spot, you would have a 3ft hole in a wall. That hole gets bigger the older the home is, the older the roof is, and if convection prevention is is ignored.

I think the government has every right to regulate the power demands of various devices and appliances. That coupled with consumer demand for performance will press the industry to produce a better product.

Power plants come in as a long-term solution to growing energy consumption. Regardless of how well homes are insulated and appliances regulated, there will come a point when there are simply to many of them for a grid to handle, and the grid will need to put out more power. Wind farms can't do it; they kill birds and reduce property values anyway. Nuke and coal are the best sources of power today.

I'm not sure if I'm ready to support President Obama in a Cash for Old Homes program, but I'm open to his administration dealing with this appropriately.


***
Now, if anyone would like to return to playing silly games, I'll be happy to oblige.
 
Catawba said:
How exactly would they reduce the load from your AC from outside the home?
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Reduce the total load afforded to the home. If you want to run your AC at max all day every day, fine, but don't expect to also have computers, dishwashers, ovens and TV running at the same time.
 
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