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Obama Signs Bill To Extend Bush Tax Cuts

Objective Voice said:
You're talking about "survival of the fittest". Sorry...that works in the deepest, darkest jungles of Africa, not in civilized society.

Try again...
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what I was saying-and you obviously did not understand-is that modern society is a bargain for the least able because those who win under most any circumstance are forced to support those who would croak in most situations
 
haymarket said:
It is not the same thing at all. The Constitution DOES NOT guaranty anyone equal opportunity. It is nowhere in there at all.

As for your argument on the tax cuts, the law did not change over the last seven to nine years. They were what they were. Middle class people got a small cut and richer people got a much larger tax savings. Is this in dispute.

Has Obama said otherwise?
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Middle class people don't pay much in terms of income tax, richer people pay alot in terms of income taxes. The top 10% pay something like 70% of the income tax. It only makes sense that when there are cuts to progressive taxes, the top payers are going to benefit the most

Don't like that-join me in supporting a Fair Tax or a flat tax
 
TurtleDude said:
Middle class people don't pay much in terms of income tax, richer people pay alot in terms of income taxes. The top 10% pay something like 70% of the income tax. It only makes sense that when there are cuts to progressive taxes, the top payers are going to benefit the most

Don't like that-join me in supporting a Fair Tax or a flat tax
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Liberal definition of fairness?

The top 1% of wage earners make 20% of all income and pay 38% of all taxes.
The top 5% of wage earners make 34.7% of all income and pay 58.7% of all taxes.
 
TurtleDude said:
Middle class people don't pay much in terms of income tax, richer people pay alot in terms of income taxes. The top 10% pay something like 70% of the income tax. It only makes sense that when there are cuts to progressive taxes, the top payers are going to benefit the most

Don't like that-join me in supporting a Fair Tax or a flat tax
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So if I do not like having headaches the way out is suicide? Gee let me think about that?


No thanks.
 
Conservative said:
Liberal definition of fairness?

The top 1% of wage earners make 20% of all income and pay 38% of all taxes.
The top 5% of wage earners make 34.7% of all income and pay 58.7% of all taxes.
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They use that fairness crap even though under any objective definition the rich are treated unfairly-in order to advance their class warfare pandering to the untalented and unlucky in order to buy votes
 
haymarket said:
So if I do not like having headaches the way out is suicide? Gee let me think about that?


No thanks.
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You are against a flat tax because it would prevent dems from using promises of higher rates on the rich to buy the votes of the unproductive and non-tax paying voters?
 
TurtleDude said:
They use that fairness crap even though under any objective definition the rich are treated unfairly-in order to advance their class warfare pandering to the untalented and unlucky in order to buy votes
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or another way to put it

from Turtle Dude

"This has been the 1,000 airing of the same message you have heard many times before."
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I am wondering why some of the class warfare types are against the flat tax? Is it due to the fact that dem politicians lose t he ability to buy votes by promising the many that only the taxes of the few will go up? Under a flat tax, the poor will have a tax free limit (usually 15 to 20K from what I have seen) and the rich will still pay far far more.
 
TurtleDude said:
I am wondering why some of the class warfare types are against the flat tax? Is it due to the fact that dem politicians lose t he ability to buy votes by promising the many that only the taxes of the few will go up? Under a flat tax, the poor will have a tax free limit (usually 15 to 20K from what I have seen) and the rich will still pay far far more.
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You remind me of that old singer O.C Smith who has one record "Little Green Apples" and sang it for thirty-five years with nothing else to go with it.

The rich would pay less actual tax dollars under the flat tax by most estimations. Why else would wealthy industrialists like Forbes be pushing it? Its all a matter of greedy self interest with them ... and you also.
 
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haymarket said:
You remind me of that old singer O.C Smith who has one record "Little Green Apples" and sang it for thirty-five years with nothing else to go with it.

The rich would pay less actual tax dollars under the flat tax by most estimations. Why else would wealthy industrialists like Forbes be pushing it? Its all a matter of greedy self interest with them ... and you also.
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your last four or five posts don't address what I say or refute my points-they merely complain that I am repetitive which is hilarious
 
TurtleDude said:
your last four or five posts don't address what I say or refute my points-they merely complain that I am repetitive which is hilarious
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Your claims have been refuted time and time and time again. All you have to do is go back and read the first 500 times you made these points and what followed from many people destroying your claims.

Just go to the thread in the Polls section where your idea about connecting the vote to the income tax was soundly defeated. Its there for you to see.
 
haymarket said:
Your claims have been refuted time and time and time again. All you have to do is go back and read the first 500 times you made these points and what followed from many people destroying your claims.

Just go to the thread in the Polls section where your idea about connecting the vote to the income tax was soundly defeated. Its there for you to see.
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1) refute-you don't agree with it-nothing more nothing less. How can you "refute" my belief that America would be better off with a system where we reject the constant catering to the unproductive and the addicted? You cannot. You want democrats to win elections, I do not. The current system gives democrat politicians far more advantages than they would have if they were forced to raise taxes on EVERYONE to pay for the social programs that they use to buy the votes of those who are net tax consumers

2) polls mean nothing. that doesn't mean I am wrong especially in a system where the many are able to get the money of the few.

No one has destroyed my claims and your constant appeal to quantity rather than quality is a testament to the mindset of the lowest common denominator welfare socialist. Four parasites saying that they want the wealth of one producer is hardly an argument that looting is correct even if inevitable
 
Here is the fact that blows you out of the water

The total federal, state and local effective tax rate for the richest one percent of Americans (30.9 percent) is only slightly higher than the average effective tax rate for the remaining 99 percent of Americans (29.4 percent).

Got that. There is no excessive tax burden on the rich while others are getting off free and paying nothing. Your attempt to use one tax to make that case is smoke and mirrors designed to create a false impression that simply vanishes like smoke in the wind when the entire picture of taxation in America is looked at.

All your hyperbole about parasites and free-loaders and welfare dependent people not paying is simply NOT TRUE when ALL TAXATION in this country is looked at.

You badly need a new song becuase the one you have been singing is played out.
 
haymarket said:
Here is the fact that blows you out of the water

The total federal, state and local effective tax rate for the richest one percent of Americans (30.9 percent) is only slightly higher than the average effective tax rate for the remaining 99 percent of Americans (29.4 percent).

Got that. There is no excessive tax burden on the rich while others are getting off free and paying nothing. Your attempt to use one tax to make that case is smoke and mirrors designed to create a false impression that simply vanishes like smoke in the wind when the entire picture of taxation in America is looked at.

All your hyperbole about parasites and free-loaders and welfare dependent people not paying is simply NOT TRUE when ALL TAXATION in this country is looked at.

You badly need a new song becuase the one you have been singing is played out.
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sorry that crap doesn't cut it when that biased left wing study tries to claim that every possible thing is "taxes" when the issue is the income tax burden. Local taxes are not part of the debate on federal tax issues-the issues that are main talking points in federal elections.

if someone pays 100 dollars for every dollar of government services they receive and another person pays a few cents for every dollar of government services they receive, the former is over taxed and the latter is a free loader. Your idiotic study-funded by a far left welfare-socialist group fails to deal with that.
 
from Wikipedia on the Citizens for Tax Justice

Citizens for Tax Justice (founded in 1979) is a lobbying organization focusing on federal, state and local tax policies and their impact upon our nation. CTJ's mission is to give ordinary people a greater voice in the development of tax laws. Their principles are: Fair taxes for middle and low-income families; Requiring the wealthy to pay their fair share; Closing corporate tax loopholes; Adequately funding important government services; Reducing the federal debt; and Taxation that minimizes distortion of economic markets.
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That sure does NOT sound like some radical extremist group to me. Although I could imagine that a extreme right winger who wanted to use biased and partial information to strip tens of million of American from their voting rights might consider them a threat.

from Turtle


sorry that crap doesn't cut it when that biased left wing study tries to claim that every possible thing is "taxes" when the issue is the income tax burden. Local taxes are not part of the debate on federal tax issues-the issues that are main talking points in federal elections.
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No, that is the narrow issue that YOU want to foist upon people to fool them into accepting the crap that you are serving up. In a discussion about taxes, it is only right to talk about taxes. For or for anyone to restrict it to only a single tax while ignoring all others is intellectually dishonest and intentionally deceitful.
 
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haymarket said:
from Wikipedia on the Citizens for Tax Justice



That sure does NOT sound like some radical extremist group to me. Although I could imagine that a extreme right winger who wanted to use biased and partial information to strip tens of million of American from their voting rights might consider them a threat.
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uh when a group says the rich need to pay their fair share that sounds like leftist crap to me given that the rich pay 40% of the federal income tax and all the death taxes.

BTW its a front for the AFL-CIO
 
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TurtleDude said:
uh when a group says the rich need to pay their fair share that sounds like leftist crap to me given that the rich pay 40% of the federal income tax and all the death taxes.

BTW its a front for the AFL-CIO
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It matters not what you or what anyone thinks of the group.
It matters not if they do or dio not worship before the same ideological altar that you do.
It matters not if they support the same political organizations that you do.

All that is immaterial and does not change the facts about tax burden in America.

btw - the last time I looked the AFL-CIO was a legal organization.
 
haymarket said:
Here is the fact that blows you out of the water

The total federal, state and local effective tax rate for the richest one percent of Americans (30.9 percent) is only slightly higher than the average effective tax rate for the remaining 99 percent of Americans (29.4 percent).

Got that. There is no excessive tax burden on the rich while others are getting off free and paying nothing. Your attempt to use one tax to make that case is smoke and mirrors designed to create a false impression that simply vanishes like smoke in the wind when the entire picture of taxation in America is looked at.

All your hyperbole about parasites and free-loaders and welfare dependent people not paying is simply NOT TRUE when ALL TAXATION in this country is looked at.

You badly need a new song becuase the one you have been singing is played out.
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I knew you didn't get it and continue to spout the leftwing distortions. This is about FEDERAL INCOME TAXES!!!! I have been saying this over and over again but as usual you divert from that fact. What is it about culf followers that force them to divert from the topic and ignore the facts presented?

The top 1% of wage earners make 20% of all income and pay 38% of all Federal Income taxes.
The top 5% of wage earners make 34.7% of all income and pay 58.7% of all Federal Income taxes.
 
NO. It is about taxation. All taxation paid by citizens. You and the supporters on the far right only WANT it to be about income taxes because it serves your narrow ideological and political goals.

Why would you be so intellectually dishonest as to attempt to narrow the discussion to just one tax when it presents a completely skewed and incomplete picture of the true tax burden in America?
 
haymarket said:
NO. It is about taxation. All taxation paid by citizens. You and the supporters on the far right only WANT it to be about income taxes because it serves your narrow ideological and political goals.

Why would you be so intellectually dishonest as to attempt to narrow the discussion to just one tax when it presents a completely skewed and incomplete picture of the true tax burden in America?
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What you want to do is dictate what you believe is fair as you ignore the basics that it isn't fair for 47% of the people to pay zero in Federal Income taxes. Many people in that category don't have a problem with raising the taxes on the other 53% although the last election says those numbers are dropping.

Most state taxes are use taxes and determined by what you spend or where you live. If you don't buy anything you don't pay state sales taxes, if you don't drive you don't pay exise taxes on gasoline, your property taxes are determined by where you live. All these are governed by behavior. All states have different tax structures, my state doesn't have an Income tax. What is it about the liberal ideology that prevents you from staying on topic and admitting you are wrong.
 
haymarket said:
It matters not what you or what anyone thinks of the group.
It matters not if they do or dio not worship before the same ideological altar that you do.
It matters not if they support the same political organizations that you do.

All that is immaterial and does not change the facts about tax burden in America.

btw - the last time I looked the AFL-CIO was a legal organization.
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so is the communist party and the John Birch society. So what? they have a left wing agenda and when some group claims the "rich don't pay their fair share" that brands them as idiots
 
Conservative said:
What you want to do is dictate what you believe is fair as you ignore the basics that it isn't fair for 47% of the people to pay zero in Federal Income taxes. Many people in that category don't have a problem with raising the taxes on the other 53% although the last election says those numbers are dropping.

Most state taxes are use taxes and determined by what you spend or where you live. If you don't buy anything you don't pay state sales taxes, if you don't drive you don't pay exise taxes on gasoline, your property taxes are determined by where you live. All these are governed by behavior. All states have different tax structures, my state doesn't have an Income tax. What is it about the liberal ideology that prevents you from staying on topic and admitting you are wrong.
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Sorry but I am not dictating anything. All I am trying to do is to introduce the complete picture of taxation upon the citizen.

Why would you object to the complete picture?
 
TurtleDude said:
so is the communist party and the John Birch society. So what? they have a left wing agenda and when some group claims the "rich don't pay their fair share" that brands them as idiots
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Now you are engaging in complete dishonesty. The study was not from either the Communist Party nor the John Birch Society.

The group which did the study, Citizens for Tax Justice has even been lauded for their work by that bastion of left wing Trotskyism ...... The Wall Street Journal. Imagine that.
 
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Conservative said:
I knew you didn't get it and continue to spout the leftwing distortions. This is about FEDERAL INCOME TAXES!!!! I have been saying this over and over again but as usual you divert from that fact. What is it about culf followers that force them to divert from the topic and ignore the facts presented?

The top 1% of wage earners make 20% of all income and pay 38% of all Federal Income taxes.
The top 5% of wage earners make 34.7% of all income and pay 58.7% of all Federal Income taxes.
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Lets understand what we are dealing with-a democrat party operative who realizes that the most effective campaign strategy the dems have is promising their voters all sorts of welfare-socialist spending that will be paid for by OTHERS. He realizes that any reform of the tax system that prevents people like John Kerry (who married into billions) from pandering to the envious, the untalented and the unproductive will hurt his party because what his party mainly has to offer its supporters is income redistribution.
 
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