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Thread: Obama Signs Bill To Extend Bush Tax Cuts

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    Re: Obama Signs Bill To Extend Bush Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    from Conservative



    Specifically how does that work?
    I would have thought that a Civics teacher would have read the Constitution and understand how our govt. works.

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    Re: Obama Signs Bill To Extend Bush Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I think I understand both sides of the Bush tax cuts debate.

    For the wealthy -

    They took a product or service, cultivated it into a business of some sort, ultimately employeed a number of people to replicate that product or service concept and pay employee salaries to do so. The government comes along, levies an assortment of taxes on the business, as well as the individual earnings. The business owner determines he's paying alot in taxes, the bulk of which he believes are being "wasted" on social programs, i.e., food stamps. So, the businessman "lobbies" his state Congressman/Senator to have his tax liabilities reduced. Congress then makes the wealthy business owner a deal, "If you do certain things to improve workplace safety, take steps to improve and/or protect the environment but most of all make financial contributions to charitable organizations that help the poor either in your community or nationally, we'll change the tax code to reduce your tax liability. In some instances if you contribute enough towards these charities and other such entities your contributions may be so great you won't have to pay any taxes and instead receive a tax refund from the government." The business owner likes this idea because it allows him to keep "more of what he earns" while not having his tax dollars go to social programs (whether or not he believes these programs are, in fact, wasteful).

    For the poor/middle-class -

    We're told that tax cuts to the wealthy will have a positive impact on our way of lives, that tax cuts will create jobs. How? Wealthy individuals will take their profits and reinvest them into their business by either: a) improving a product or service; b) paying higher salaries; c) purchasing better equipment which will both help improve the quality of the product or service, as well as help other businesses improve their profitability; d) expand their business by either increasing the size of their facility or purchasing/building additional facilities which in either case would require hiring more employees.

    Judging from the state of the economy today, the latter is what the poor/middle-class are complaining about. Instead of businesses "reinvesting" either in their business or their employees, what we're seeing is that wealthy individuals have done more to increase their personal earnings and truly keep "more of what they earn". The "arrangement" - tax cuts that benefit the wealthiest among us who would in turn create or improve opportunities for the working class - has not "trickled down" to those at the bottom. So, what we're seeing in today's economic landscape is those at the bottom saying loudly, "We're been dupped!!" Tickle-down economic has not work. If it had unemployment wouldn't be so high and we wouldn't be in a recession.
    Yet those poor and middle class were part of the electorate that is no longer buying the liberal/Obama rhetoric. As Obama stated it was a shellacking. The Nov. 2 elections were historic at the state and local levels so the class warfare rhetoric isn't selling any more. The only ones duped are the Obama supporters who bought the rhetoric that bigger govt is the answer and that the Obama stimulus plan would create jobs and bring the car out of the ditch. Keep buying the liberal rhetoric while ignoring the liberal results, 16 milloin plus unemployed and three trillion added to the debt. More unemployed each month of 2010 vs. 2009, Thanks, President Obama! How is that hope and change working out for you?

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    Re: Obama Signs Bill To Extend Bush Tax Cuts

    from Conservative on the 2001 Bush tax cuts responding to my answer of why the Bust tax cuts expired "Because they were temporary".


    Yes, because that is the only way they could get passed. Democrats controlled the process.
    You may want to go back to the year 2001 and check the make-up of Congress at that time.

    from Conservative regarding the tax cuts Obama signed after I refuted a charge of "hypocrisy":

    Yet, Obama said the extension of the tax cuts were good for ALL Americans. You really buy the political rhetoric, don't you? For years we heard the Bush tax cuts were for the rich so where did the Middle Class tax cuts come in? I didn't think the Middle Class got a tax cut according to the media and the left. Now all of a sudden they are being held hostage?
    It sounds like it was YOU who did not understand the tax cuts of the Bush era. And you blame the media for that? Nice way to hide from your own 'personal responsibility' (that is one of your favorite cliches is it not?) to educate yourself on public policy which impacts you.

    On the 2 point reduction in FICA tax

    Right, SS and Medicare, so isn't that 2% a cut in money going to fund future requirements of individuals? Why are you supporting cutting SS and Medicare?
    As you were already told, there is no cut in benefits, thus I do not need to support it.

    and more from FICA and allegations that it will cause cuts in programs which the President said will NOT happen:

    And you believe it? As you stated FICA funds SS so if you cut the tax funding SS aren't you cutting SS? See how foolish liberals are?
    The program is running a surplus. Cutting the revenue into the program temporarily during a surplus does not automatically a cut in benefits since there is a surplus. You not recognizing this shows how foolish conservatives are.



    When Conservative took issue with me as a government teacher and opted to pass judgment on my abilities and knowledge, I expressed surprise that he was a credentialed expert on such matters. He replied

    I never claimed to teach civics, you did? Looks to me like those that you taught wasted their time in your class.
    I see. You only claim the ability to pass judgment on the teaching skills of somebody whom you have NEVER seen in operation and only because they have a different opinion that you do and do not worship the same gods before the same ideological altar.

    I am sure there may have been some who did not get out of the class what I hoped they would get. That always happens no matter who is teaching and is highly dependent on the student. But there were many many successes to more than make up for that. The newly elected State Representative that I will be Chief of Staff for in just two weeks was one of my Government students in 1990. Apparently, not only did he get a great deal from the class, but he thought enough of the teacher to ask me to run his campaign for him and now run his office in the state capital. So you see sir, while we are all but drops in a very large sea, some of those drops do shine... some of them do shine.

    and finally, a list provided by Conservative of government spending

    Anything to cut here?
    I already did that for you a few weeks ago.
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    Re: Obama Signs Bill To Extend Bush Tax Cuts

    Anyone else notice that the compromise combines the most expensive aspects from each party's plan? You got the Reps who wanted to extend all the tax cuts but end unemployment, and the dems who want to extend some of the tax cuts and extend unemployment. So the compromise is to combine full extension of the tax cuts with the additional spending.

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    Re: Obama Signs Bill To Extend Bush Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    I would have thought that a Civics teacher would have read the Constitution and understand how our govt. works.
    I have no idea how it works? You tell me since you made the claim. It is not my job to educate you when you make an allegation. It is your job to support it if challenged.

    this was your statement

    This country guarentees equal opportunity NOT equal outcome.
    So again please, tell me how this government guaranty of equal opportunity works in real life.
    Last edited by haymarket; 12-22-10 at 03:32 PM.
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    Re: Obama Signs Bill To Extend Bush Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Anyone else notice that the compromise combines the most expensive aspects from each party's plan? You got the Reps who wanted to extend all the tax cuts but end unemployment, and the dems who want to extend some of the tax cuts and extend unemployment. So the compromise is to combine full extension of the tax cuts with the additional spending.
    Yes, I also noticed that.
    __________________________________________________ _
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    Re: Obama Signs Bill To Extend Bush Tax Cuts

    haymarket;1059174973]from Conservative on the 2001 Bush tax cuts responding to my answer of why the Bust tax cuts expired "Because they were temporary".




    You may want to go back to the year 2001 and check the make-up of Congress at that time.
    Were there 60 Republican Senators in that Congress? Surely a civics teacher understands Senate rules.

    from Conservative regarding the tax cuts Obama signed after I refuted a charge of "hypocrisy":



    It sounds like it was YOU who did not understand the tax cuts of the Bush era. And you blame the media for that? Nice way to hide from your own 'personal responsibility' (that is one of your favorite cliches is it not?) to educate yourself on public policy which impacts you.
    I understand them quite well

    Bush Tax cuts

    Between 2001 and 2003, the Bush administration instituted a federal tax cut for all taxpayers. Among other changes, the lowest income tax rate was lowered from 15% to 10%, the 27% rate went to 25%, the 30% rate went to 28%, the 35% rate went to 33%, and the top marginal tax rate went from 39.6% to 35%.[3] In addition, the child tax credit went from $500 to $1000, and the "marriage penalty" was reduced. Since the cuts were implemented as part of the annual congressional budget resolution, which protected the bill from filibusters, numerous amendments, and more than 20 hours of debate, it had to include a sunset clause. Unless congress passes legislation making the tax cuts permanent, they will expire in 2011.

    On the 2 point reduction in FICA tax



    As you were already told, there is no cut in benefits, thus I do not need to support it.

    and more from FICA and allegations that it will cause cuts in programs which the President said will NOT happen:
    Is that the way you operate in real life, live for today and the hell with tomorrow? Any idea how many IOU's are in the SS trust fund and how can reducing revenue to that fund help pay off those IOU's. Surely a civics teacher understands that.


    The program is running a surplus. Cutting the revenue into the program temporarily during a surplus does not automatically a cut in benefits since there is a surplus. You not recognizing this shows how foolish conservatives are.
    It is? As asked how many IOU's are in that fund? shouldn't those IOU's be repaid before claiming there is a surplus? Sounds to me like you don't understand Intergovt. holdings.


    When Conservative took issue with me as a government teacher and opted to pass judgment on my abilities and knowledge, I expressed surprise that he was a credentialed expert on such matters. He replied

    I see. You only claim the ability to pass judgment on the teaching skills of somebody whom you have NEVER seen in operation and only because they have a different opinion that you do and do not worship the same gods before the same ideological altar.
    Every time you make a post you cause me to question your teaching credentials. You don't seem to understand the way out govt. works at all.

    I am sure there may have been some who did not get out of the class what I hoped they would get. That always happens no matter who is teaching and is highly dependent on the student. But there were many many successes to more than make up for that. The newly elected State Representative that I will be Chief of Staff for in just two weeks was one of my Government students in 1990. Apparently, not only did he get a great deal from the class, but he thought enough of the teacher to ask me to run his campaign for him and now run his office in the state capital. So you see sir, while we are all but drops in a very large sea, some of those drops do shine... some of them do shine.
    LOL, so you are Chief of Staff for a state Representative. Sounds like a liberal state that didn't get the Nov. 2 election results.

    and finally, a list provided by Conservative of government spending

    I already did that for you a few weeks ago.

    Suggest you review it again because these are the services funded by FEDERAL INCOME TAXES and EXCISE TAXES. You seem a little confused. Hopefully your State Representative understands Federal and State responsibilities better than you. The items listed there are funded by 53% of the income earners whereas the other 47% benefit from those taxes. That fair to you?

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    Re: Obama Signs Bill To Extend Bush Tax Cuts

    Wait a minute Conservative, let's look at this:

    Were there 60 Republican Senators in that Congress?
    OK, right, it takes 60 senators to block a filibuster.

    Since the cuts were implemented as part of the annual congressional budget resolution, which protected the bill from filibusters,
    Oops, guess they did not need those 60 votes, only 50...
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    Re: Obama Signs Bill To Extend Bush Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I think I understand both sides of the Bush tax cuts debate.

    For the wealthy -

    They took a product or service, cultivated it into a business of some sort, ultimately employeed a number of people to replicate that product or service concept and pay employee salaries to do so. The government comes along, levies an assortment of taxes on the business, as well as the individual earnings. The business owner determines he's paying alot in taxes, the bulk of which he believes are being "wasted" on social programs, i.e., food stamps. So, the businessman "lobbies" his state Congressman/Senator to have his tax liabilities reduced. Congress then makes the wealthy business owner a deal, "If you do certain things to improve workplace safety, take steps to improve and/or protect the environment but most of all make financial contributions to charitable organizations that help the poor either in your community or nationally, we'll change the tax code to reduce your tax liability. In some instances if you contribute enough towards these charities and other such entities your contributions may be so great you won't have to pay any taxes and instead receive a tax refund from the government." The business owner likes this idea because it allows him to keep "more of what he earns" while not having his tax dollars go to social programs (whether or not he believes these programs are, in fact, wasteful).

    For the poor/middle-class -

    We're told that tax cuts to the wealthy will have a positive impact on our way of lives, that tax cuts will create jobs. How? Wealthy individuals will take their profits and reinvest them into their business by either: a) improving a product or service; b) paying higher salaries; c) purchasing better equipment which will both help improve the quality of the product or service, as well as help other businesses improve their profitability; d) expand their business by either increasing the size of their facility or purchasing/building additional facilities which in either case would require hiring more employees.

    Judging from the state of the economy today, the latter is what the poor/middle-class are complaining about. Instead of businesses "reinvesting" either in their business or their employees, what we're seeing is that wealthy individuals have done more to increase their personal earnings and truly keep "more of what they earn". The "arrangement" - tax cuts that benefit the wealthiest among us who would in turn create or improve opportunities for the working class - has not "trickled down" to those at the bottom. So, what we're seeing in today's economic landscape is those at the bottom saying loudly, "We're been dupped!!" Tickle-down economic has not work. If it had unemployment wouldn't be so high and we wouldn't be in a recession.
    a bit simplistic. In nature, the untalented and the unproductive starve. The most industrious and most shrewd propser in just about any system. Seems like the poor and untalented have a pretty good deal. Society caters to the least able



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    Re: Obama Signs Bill To Extend Bush Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Yet those poor and middle class were part of the electorate that is no longer buying the liberal/Obama rhetoric. As Obama stated it was a shellacking. The Nov. 2 elections were historic at the state and local levels so the class warfare rhetoric isn't selling any more. The only ones duped are the Obama supporters who bought the rhetoric that bigger govt is the answer and that the Obama stimulus plan would create jobs and bring the car out of the ditch. Keep buying the liberal rhetoric while ignoring the liberal results, 16 milloin plus unemployed and three trillion added to the debt. More unemployed each month of 2010 vs. 2009, Thanks, President Obama! How is that hope and change working out for you?
    I think you'd be mistaken that this was a referendum against the President. I'd say it was more an issue of balancing the power of government. Happens every midterm election cycle. Prior to 2006 we had a Republican President and a Republican Congress. The People didn't like that one side had too much control over the government and as a result they elected a Democrat President (given the other choice(s), I can't say I blame them) and a majority Democrat Congress. Four years later, they reversed it. I wouldn't be surprised if the situation changes course again in 2012. However, if Congress remains majority Republican and the state of the nation shows marked improvements, we might see most parties currently in government get re-elected including the President. Stay tuned...

    But I digress...this isn't about the upcoming 2012 election cycle. So, let's try NOT to re-direct the conversation again, shall we? This is about the effectiveness of the Bush tax cuts and/or the concept of "trickle-down economics" overall. So, my question to you is:

    Based on the state of the economy today prior to both the 2006 midterms AND the 2008 presidential election, did the Bush tax cuts which has it's roots in the concept of trickle-down economics work as outlined to the American public or did they not?
    It's a simple question...yes or no?

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