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Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

cpwill said:
you were out of the country in 2004?


give you a hint; a reallllly fat guy was seated in the Presidents box at the Democratic Party Convention right next to Jimmy Carter. and it wasn't Chris Christie.
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Why is it shocking to you that he stood with the Democrating party in 2004? Does it need to be more obvious that he wanted Bush out more than anything? If you think he's such a Democrat lover and a shill for the party, why don't you google what he's been saying for the last year or so. There is no doubt Moore is liberal and firm in his stance. However I have not seen anything to indicate that he's partisan.
 
Middleground said:
Amazing that you don't see Beck, Limbaugh et al. in the same light.

I equate that to:

Glenn = critical of the US government = loves America because he and Dav lean in a similar fashion
Mike Moore = critical of the US government = hates America because he and Dav lean in different directions

That's EXACTLY what you are reflecting.
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Not really. I don't give two craps about Beck, any more than I give two craps about Moore.

I'm basing this on their words and actions alone.
Beck has criticized certain aspects of U.S. policy, and praised other aspects of the country.
Micheal Moore does not just criticize the U.S. government like Beck does, that is a complete mischaracterization. He critizices pretty much every aspect of the country, including every policy he ever talks about, its culture, its system, its economy, and the intelligence of its people. Unlike Beck, he doesn't have very much good things to say about any of that.

Again, I don't care for Glenn Beck, but come on now. To say that Moore doesn't hate America more than he does is to completely ignore everything that Moore has said and done.


Middleground said:
Is National Geographic wrong?
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Did National Geographic claim that Americans are the stupidest people in the world?
 
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Dav said:
Here's that quote again in case you missed it:




(From Michael Moore - Wikiquote, scroll down to 2004)


Pretty much says all you need to know, really.
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Which is a criticism on our current society. It shows that he wants to improve it. Criticism is not hatred. Try again.
 
Dr_Patrick said:
Which is a criticism on our current society. It shows that he wants to improve it. Criticism is not hatred. Try again.
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If you frame it that way, then pretty much everything is "just a criticism" and there is nothing you can show to prove hatred.


If saying that Americans are possibly the dumbest people in the world doesn't show hatred of America, then nothing really does, short of a flat out declaration of "I hate America". Even without that statement, it was obvious from the patterns in the man's actions... that was just what made it completely clear. But fine, if you're going to say that every spiteful statement (not just "criticism", either, but outright insult) is just something he wants to see improved, then there's no debating with you, since that applies to every statement imagineable.
 
Dav said:
Not really. I don't give two craps about Beck, any more than I give two craps about Moore.

I'm basing this on their words and actions alone.
Beck has criticized certain aspects of U.S. policy, and praised other aspects of the country.
Micheal Moore does not just criticize the U.S. government like Beck does, that is a complete mischaracterization. He critizices pretty much every aspect of the country, including every policy he ever talks about, its culture, its system, its economy, and the intelligence of its people. Unlike Beck, he doesn't have very much good things to say about any of that.

Again, I don't care for Glenn Beck, but come on now. To say that Moore doesn't hate America more than he does is to completely ignore everything that Moore has said and done.
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You greatly exaggerate. I can easily find quotes from both dispelling what you say. For instance, you think Beck loves Liberals? That's roughly 50% of Americans. So your logic is not right.





Did National Geographic claim that Americans are the stupidest people in the world?
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No, but it's an easy conclusion when you see the results.
 
Who cares what that fat slob anti America Michael Moore has to say.
 
Erod said:
Well, he seems hell-bent that we need be more like Cuba. He loves their healthcare system. LOL
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I wish he'd move his fat ass to Cuba, Castro will put his big ass on a diet.
 
Middleground said:
You greatly exaggerate. I can easily find quotes from both dispelling what you say. For instance, you think Beck loves Liberals? That's roughly 50% of Americans. So your logic is not right.
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Actually, 20%.


No, but it's an easy conclusion when you see the results.
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lolwut? 60% of Americans age 18-25 don't know the location of a single country according to a single poll, and... without knowing similar results for different countries, it's "easy" to conclude that Americans are the stupidest people in the world? Because we all know that the knowledge of a nation's college-age kids of where Great Britain is correlates with that nation's intelligence?

If you're predisposed to think that already, then yeah, it is an easy conclusion.
 
Dav said:
If you frame it that way, then pretty much everything is "just a criticism" and there is nothing you can show to prove hatred.
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If he hated America, why would he be here? Why wouldn't his movies be about hating everything about America rather than focusing on criticisms he has with specific elements of our government politics and culture? And you're damn right I frame it that way. To me, hating America is taking the time to hijack airplanes and fly them into national landmarks, or leaving the country.


If saying that Americans are possibly the dumbest people in the world doesn't show hatred of America, then nothing really does, short of a flat out declaration of "I hate America". Even without that statement, it was obvious from the patterns in the man's actions... that was just what made it completely clear. But fine, if you're going to say that every spiteful statement (not just "criticism", either, but outright insult) is just something he wants to see improved, then there's no debating with you, since that applies to every statement imagineable.
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There is a truth to that, though. Many Americans are incredibly ignorant of our own history. His statement was a blanket statement, but then again so was yours that he "hates America."
 
Dr_Patrick said:
And you're damn right I frame it that way. To me, hating America is taking the time to hijack airplanes and fly them into national landmarks, or leaving the country.
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Again, then there's no arguing with you. That's like saying you can't hate chocolate unless you join the War on Chocolate and blow up a Hershey's building.

Most people who hate America don't move. Moving to a different country is a very big deal, sometimes isn't plausible/affordable, and requires tons of preparations and a whole change of life just because of some ideological position. In Moore's case, though, it probably is mostly just because he's making tons of money living in America as it is, so he might as well just stay and make more money with documentaries to explain one more reason why he hates it to add to the pile.
 
Dav said:
Again, then there's no arguing with you. That's like saying you can't hate chocolate unless you join the War on Chocolate and blow up a Hershey's building.

Most people who hate America don't move. Moving to a different country is a very big deal, sometimes isn't plausible/affordable, and requires tons of preparations and a whole change of life just because of some ideological position. In Moore's case, though, it probably is mostly just because he's making tons of money living in America as it is, so he might as well just stay and make more money with documentaries to explain one more reason why he hates it to add to the pile.
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You're right, there is no arguing with me when you are trying to equate criticism to hatred. They aren't the same, nor will they ever be.
 
Dav said:
Actually, 20%.
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With roughly 30% moderates who hold many liberal views. So Glenn Beck hates America. I can find more of his asinine blanket statements if you want.



lolwut? 60% of Americans age 18-25 don't know the location of a single country according to a single poll, and... without knowing similar results for different countries, it's "easy" to conclude that Americans are the stupidest people in the world? Because we all know that the knowledge of a nation's college-age kids of where Great Britain is correlates with that nation's intelligence?

If you're predisposed to think that already, then yeah, it is an easy conclusion.
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The result is not good. If I got a D on a test, it does not matter how everyone else in the class scores. A D sucks... period.
 
Michael Moore and all who defend him are "Firsters" and once again have no clue when it comes to the History of the Nation they seem to love to hate.

I would remind or inform them of a name they need to look up, "Benedict Arnold."

All traitors and spies should be hung in the public square.
 
Jefferson and Franklin both would have defended Wikileaks. Keep in mind that thus far what has been released has been embarrassing on a diplomatic level, but it has had no impact on our national security.

The framers of the Constitution held their honor in high regard. They would have stood by what they said, and not tried to classify their statements "secret" so that no one would know their real opinions. That was the honest approach to politics.. something we seem to have forgotten in these modern times, and Wikileaks has forced us to take a big step toward resuming that policy of honorably standing by your words. Michael Moore was correct in his assertion.

Disagreeing with the leaders of the nation, no matter how publicly, has never been an offense for which the founding fathers would have shot someone. A few of them might have challenged Mr Moore to a duel, but that is an entirely different scenario.
 
Just1Voice said:
Jefferson and Franklin both would have defended Wikileaks. Keep in mind that thus far what has been released has been embarrassing on a diplomatic level, but it has had no impact on our national security.

The framers of the Constitution held their honor in high regard. They would have stood by what they said, and not tried to classify their statements "secret" so that no one would know their real opinions. That was the honest approach to politics.. something we seem to have forgotten in these modern times, and Wikileaks has forced us to take a big step toward resuming that policy of honorably standing by your words. Michael Moore was correct in his assertion.

Disagreeing with the leaders of the nation, no matter how publicly, has never been an offense for which the founding fathers would have shot someone. A few of them might have challenged Mr Moore to a duel, but that is an entirely different scenario.
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I love how everyone thinks that they can speak for the founding fathers. You sound just as arrogant as Moore does.
 
Just1Voice said:
Jefferson and Franklin both would have defended Wikileaks. Keep in mind that thus far what has been released has been embarrassing on a diplomatic level, but it has had no impact on our national security.

The framers of the Constitution held their honor in high regard. They would have stood by what they said, and not tried to classify their statements "secret" so that no one would know their real opinions. That was the honest approach to politics.. something we seem to have forgotten in these modern times, and Wikileaks has forced us to take a big step toward resuming that policy of honorably standing by your words. Michael Moore was correct in his assertion.

Disagreeing with the leaders of the nation, no matter how publicly, has never been an offense for which the founding fathers would have shot someone. A few of them might have challenged Mr Moore to a duel, but that is an entirely different scenario.
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Jefferson and Franklin both would have defended Wikileaks
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How do you know?? Did they tell you??
 
Dr_Patrick said:
I love how everyone thinks that they can speak for the founding fathers. You sound just as arrogant as Moore does.
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I love it when people accuse me of being arrogant... that translates to "You think you're so smart.." which is the standard defense of folks who suffer an inferiority complex.

Arrogance is the trait that conservatives most often ascribe to liberals.. they believe liberals think they are superior. It isn't true, of course. It reminds me of all those times folks would defend their egos when they felt inferior in academic disciplines by saying "You have book smarts, but I am street smart."

Yeah, yeah, whatever makes you feel better. It is a waste of time to argue with you.
 
Dr_Patrick said:
You're right, there is no arguing with me when you are trying to equate criticism to hatred. They aren't the same, nor will they ever be.
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And you're trying to equate hatred to criticism.

This is criticism: "America has a broken educational system, a greed-based economy, and a government full of corrupt aristocrats".
This is hatred: "America is a putrid s**t-hole full of warmongering idiots and evil self-serving slimebags".

Yet by your logic, the latter is not hatred, because you could interpret whoever said it to just want to improve the problems they pointed out.

Middleground said:
With roughly 30% moderates who hold many liberal views. So Glenn Beck hates America. I can find more of his asinine blanket statements if you want.
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Fine, but that doesn't really address any of the reasons I've given for Michael Moore hating America.
Has Glenn Beck made dozends of books and documentaries for each individual, unrelated thing he dislikes about America, wherein he passionately points out every one of its flaws he can think of without praising it for anything?
Has he stated that Americans might possibly be the stupidest people in the world?



The result is not good. If I got a D on a test, it does not matter how everyone else in the class scores. A D sucks... period.
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Okay, but that's not what you said. You said that, using the result, it's easy to conclude that Americans are the stupidest people on the planet.

Now tell me... if all you know about a student is that they got a D in a single subject one year, could you easily conclude, without knowing anyone else's grades on that or any topic, and without knowing that student's grade on any other subject, that the student is the stupidest person in the school? (Basic logic says that the answer is "no".)
 
Just1Voice said:
I love it when people accuse me of being arrogant... that translates to "You think you're so smart.." which is the standard defense of folks who suffer an inferiority complex.

Arrogance is the trait that conservatives most often ascribe to liberals.. they believe liberals think they are superior. It isn't true, of course. It reminds me of all those times folks would defend their egos when they felt inferior in academic disciplines by saying "You have book smarts, but I am street smart."

Yeah, yeah, whatever makes you feel better. It is a waste of time to argue with you.
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And there's such a thing as "educated idiots" also.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Tone it down.
 
Just1Voice said:
I love it when people accuse me of being arrogant... that translates to "You think you're so smart.." which is the standard defense of folks who suffer an inferiority complex.
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I didn't accuse you of being arrogant. I said that your comments made you sound as arrogant as Moore did with his comments.

Arrogance is the trait that conservatives most often ascribe to liberals.. they believe liberals think they are superior. It isn't true, of course. It reminds me of all those times folks would defend their egos when they felt inferior in academic disciplines by saying "You have book smarts, but I am street smart."
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Both sides accuse the opposite side of a lot of things. What is your point?
 
I have a feeling Benjamin Franklin could have disapproved.....diplomacy is a careful art not to be reckoned with by children with toys.
 
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Dav said:
And you're trying to equate hatred to criticism.
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Uh...what?

This is criticism: "America has a broken educational system, a greed-based economy, and a government full of corrupt aristocrats".
This is hatred: "America is a putrid s**t-hole full of warmongering idiots and evil self-serving slimebags".
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When has Michael Moore said anything remotely resembling your second comment?

Yet by your logic, the latter is not hatred, because you could interpret whoever said it to just want to improve the problems they pointed out.
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I think it's more complicated than that. Obviously, the second one is a far more generalized and inarticulate comment. It isn't necessarily hatred for America, though. Perhaps it's a criticism for what America has become. You are oversimplifying the issue.
 
It's a good thing Michale Moore is always wrong :D Let's not change that now.

I highly doubt the founders would have supported the British army stealing and leaking military information about the Colonial forces or leaking other information. For one, Assange is not an American and is not protected by our Constitution. His actions are also putting lives at risk and are bad for our nation. I don't think the founders would approve of a foreigner leaking critical information out.
 
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