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Thread: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Quote Originally Posted by MissLToe View Post
    Some yes, some no. They were a diverse group.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 12-16-10 at 08:45 PM.
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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Just1Voice View Post
    I love it when people accuse me of being arrogant... that translates to "You think you're so smart.." which is the standard defense of folks who suffer an inferiority complex.
    I didn't accuse you of being arrogant. I said that your comments made you sound as arrogant as Moore did with his comments.

    Arrogance is the trait that conservatives most often ascribe to liberals.. they believe liberals think they are superior. It isn't true, of course. It reminds me of all those times folks would defend their egos when they felt inferior in academic disciplines by saying "You have book smarts, but I am street smart."
    Both sides accuse the opposite side of a lot of things. What is your point?

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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    I have a feeling Benjamin Franklin could have disapproved.....diplomacy is a careful art not to be reckoned with by children with toys.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 12-16-10 at 09:20 PM.
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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    And you're trying to equate hatred to criticism.
    Uh...what?

    This is criticism: "America has a broken educational system, a greed-based economy, and a government full of corrupt aristocrats".
    This is hatred: "America is a putrid s**t-hole full of warmongering idiots and evil self-serving slimebags".
    When has Michael Moore said anything remotely resembling your second comment?

    Yet by your logic, the latter is not hatred, because you could interpret whoever said it to just want to improve the problems they pointed out.
    I think it's more complicated than that. Obviously, the second one is a far more generalized and inarticulate comment. It isn't necessarily hatred for America, though. Perhaps it's a criticism for what America has become. You are oversimplifying the issue.

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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    It's a good thing Michale Moore is always wrong Let's not change that now.

    I highly doubt the founders would have supported the British army stealing and leaking military information about the Colonial forces or leaking other information. For one, Assange is not an American and is not protected by our Constitution. His actions are also putting lives at risk and are bad for our nation. I don't think the founders would approve of a foreigner leaking critical information out.
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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Fine, but that doesn't really address any of the reasons I've given for Michael Moore hating America.
    Huh? Blanket statements of "liberals are this" and "liberals are that" not displays of hate? That's roughly 50% of the population.

    Has Glenn Beck made dozends of books and documentaries for each individual, unrelated thing he dislikes about America, wherein he passionately points out every one of its flaws he can think of without praising it for anything?
    Glenn Beck cries for America, for Pete's sake!!!!

    Glen has got more of a partisan agenda than Moore, IMO. But he does incessantly whine about a bunch of things, particularly the left.

    As for Moore, although he criticizes a lot, he does it because he wants change. He does not hate America. You're wrong about Moore not praising, BTW. He has many a time.



    Has he stated that Americans might possibly be the stupidest people in the world?
    Not sure, but if he has, he wouldn't be off-base. Note the key words here... "might." Might is not "is." Big difference, don't you think?


    Okay, but that's not what you said. You said that, using the result, it's easy to conclude that Americans are the stupidest people on the planet.
    No, I did not. At least, it was not my intention. I just took note of the National Geographic survey in which the 18-25 age group did quite poorly. They are dumb and did rather poorly on that question. So basically, what I get out of that statement is that the American school system might be lacking in certain areas, which is not news to me.

    Here, take a look at another blow hard with his American hating title, 'Stupid in America' by John Stossel. Does he hate America, too?

    To give you an idea of how competitive American schools are and how U.S. students performed compared with their European counterparts, we gave parts of an international test to some high school students in Belgium and in New Jersey.

    Belgian kids cleaned the American kids' clocks, and called them "stupid."

    We didn't pick smart kids to test in Europe and dumb kids in the United States. The American students attend an above-average school in New Jersey, and New Jersey's kids have test scores that are above average for America.

    Lov Patel, the boy who got the highest score among the American students, told me, "I'm shocked, because it just shows how advanced they are compared to us."

    The Belgian students didn't perform better because they're smarter than American students. They performed better because their schools are better. At age 10, American students take an international test and score well above the international average. But by age 15, when students from 40 countries are tested, the Americans place 25th.

    American schools don't teach as well as schools in other countries because they are government monopolies, and monopolies don't have much incentive to compete. In Belgium, by contrast, the money is attached to the kids -- it's a kind of voucher system. Government funds education -- at many different kinds of schools -- but if a school can't attract students, it goes out of business.
    Now tell me... if all you know about a student is that they got a D in a single subject one year, could you easily conclude, without knowing anyone else's grades on that or any topic, and without knowing that student's grade on any other subject, that the student is the stupidest person in the school? (Basic logic says that the answer is "no".)
    No, of course not. The conclusion I can come up with is that student did poorly in that subject and needs to do something to get his her grades up.

    Now answer this...

    Did Moore make his statement of "Americas are possibly the dumbest people on the planet" based-on that one fact (the National Geographic survey) or could it have been from other finding that he did not disclose in that one quote?
    Last edited by Middleground; 12-16-10 at 09:48 PM.
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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Of course they would have. Free press. The entire theory behind the crafting of the constitution was to have greater checks on government and greater guarantees of liberty to the people than in any other country on the planet. There's a reason that free press is in the first amendment. The press keeps governments honest by digging up their dirty little secrets.

    And as for Michael Moore... He's far less radical than Thomas Paine, and Paine is widely regarded as foremost among patriots during the revolution. They'd probably have been buddies.
    Last edited by Paschendale; 12-16-10 at 10:05 PM.
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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    I didn't accuse you of being arrogant. I said that your comments made you sound as arrogant as Moore did with his comments.

    Both sides accuse the opposite side of a lot of things. What is your point?
    My point is that you used an ad hominem attack on my assertion, and offered no substantive counter argument. Your words don't invalidate anything, they only reveal that you don't know how (or are too lazy) to develop a reasonable argument of your own, and that it is probable that you are threatened by that in some way.

    @Fidytree - perhaps, Franklin might have felt that Assange has been a bit reckless, although that has yet to be established. At this point in the story it is just as likely that great care has been exercised in determining what to release. And certainly he would have found Michael Moore to be a little to self-righteous. But he would have been very curious so discover what effect such an institution might have on global politics.

    I mean lets face it, if you can't guarantee that you are able to keep anything hidden any longer, wouldn't that force us to adapt a system of diplomacy based on transparency?

    Terrorists don't need state secrets to do what they do. They manage just fine with the same information everyone else has.. better, even. Attacking a secret place with strategic value but that no one knows is important isn't going to have the impact they desire. It takes an organized army to make use of that kind of information.
    Last edited by Just1Voice; 12-16-10 at 10:17 PM.

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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Just1Voice View Post
    My point is that you used an ad hominem attack on my assertion, and offered no substantive counter argument. Your words don't invalidate anything, they only reveal that you don't know how (or are too lazy) to develop a reasonable argument of your own, and that it is probable that you are threatened by that in some way.

    @Fidytree - perhaps, Franklin might have felt that Assange has been a bit reckless, although that has yet to be established. At this point in the story it is just as likely that great care has been exercised in determining what to release. And certainly he would have found Michael Moore to be a little to self-righteous. But he would have been very curious so discover what effect such an institution might have on global politics.

    I mean lets face it, if you can't guarantee that you are able to keep anything hidden any longer, wouldn't that force us to adapt a system of diplomacy based on transparency?

    Terrorists don't need state secrets to do what they do. They manage just fine with the same information everyone else has.. better, even. Attacking a secret place with strategic value but that no one knows is important isn't going to have the impact they desire. It takes an organized army to make use of that kind of information.
    Not necessarily. It could be in fact encourage the same reaction as before, if not more stringent. Nevertheless, your point could stand if say it is like a nuclear option, in such that nuclear weapons have complicated the political-military means of determining action and methodology.
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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Crow View Post
    How do you know?? Did they tell you??
    Actually they told everyone...Granted not in refrence to wikileaks exactly but what they had to say of the press is applicable to wikileaks.

    "Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    “The basis of our government being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them.” ~ Thomas Jefferson

    “No government ought to be without censors; and where the press is free no one ever will.” ~ Thomas Jefferson

    “If a nation expects to be both ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.” ~ Thomas Jefferson

    “Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freedom of
    speech.” ~ Benjamin Franklin

    “If all printers were determined not to print anything till they were sure it would offend nobody, there would be very little printed.” ~ Benjamin Franklin

    And a couple of others....

    “To the press alone, checkered as it is with abuses, the world is indebted for all the triumphs which have been obtained by reason and humanity over error and oppression.” ~ James Madison

    “Not for its own sake alone, but for the sake of society and good government, the press should be free. Publicity is the strong bond which unites the people and their government. Authority should do no act that will not bear the light.” ~ James A. Garfield


    I particularly like Garfields statement here. Especially since it can be directly related to wikileaks.
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