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Thread: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

  1. #121
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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    I love it how people always say "if the founding fathers were alive today, they would _______." It reminds me of guys who say "if I were a girl, I would stare at myself naked in the mirror all day."

    Well, no you wouldn't, because you wouldn't be a pervy male if you were a female. So it doesn't matter. The only purpose of the statement is to demonstrate how obsessed you are with a certain subject.
    A working class hero is something to be

  2. #122
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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Just1Voice View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    You've already betrayed your own opinion by continuing to engage me after declaring me "unworthy of futher attention." You don't take your own opinion very seriously, so I'm sure not going to.[/url]
    What I said, in essence, was that if you did not add something to the discussion then you were not worth my attention.
    Funy, you said in the next post:

    you have yet to present anything substantive to this conversation.
    Yet I still warranted your attention, as attested by your response -- and even your continued response here. Indeed I do warrant your attention, and no doubt will continue to.


    I took your last post as an ill conceived attempt to be a constructive part of this conversation, but because you made an attempt I felt it was at least worth giving you the benefit of the doubt.
    Apparently not, considering this thing about "yet to present anything subtantive."

    Back. Pedal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Thomas Jefferson alone wasn't "the Founders." And even he fully understood the need for secrecy in war and diplomacy.[/url]
    So in your opinion the founding fathers would have had to unanimously agree with what Wikileaks is doing in order to give credence to Michael Moore's statement? By that reasoning, even the U.S. Constitution would be an invalid example of what the founding fathers wanted, since it was the result of considerable debate and compromise.
    More specious "reasoning." All I did was show a significant chunk who had different thoughts from what you're presenting.



    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Exceptionally specious "reasoning."[/url]
    No, My reasoning was not specious
    Oh, well, if you say so.


    however I will go as far as to concede that my statement was more ambiguous than it could have been, it was not my intent to be misleading. I will restate it in a more clear form: Wikileaks released the cables and documents without editing them.
    How do you know?

    And how do you know they were ALL released, and in the proper context?

    We have only Assange's word on that. But perhaps that's good enough for you.


    Whether the statements in the documents are true or false is not at issue here. Their veracity is out of Wikileaks' purview to control, nor is such expected. Any "falsity" that might be attributed to Wikileaks could only arise if they had edited the documents or else fabricated false documents.
    You don't know that they didn't. You don't know anything other than what they want you to know.


    The credibility of Wikileaks rests on their ability to insure that whatever they release is authentic
    What makes you think "credibility" is a priority for Assange? His mission appears to be rather different.


    and I have not yet observed any official charges that the documents have been tampered with.
    That doesn't mean they weren't, and it doesn't mean they were released in full context. "Charging" same would require releasing even more documents. Not hard to see why someone wouldn't want to do that.

    So, all you have is Assange's word.


    Beyond that, the burden of veracity rests with the various authors of the documents, not with Wikileaks as an institution.
    You would think a "responsible" journalist would have an interest in it.

    Take Michael Moore himself -- he's whining because he says cables about him are false and others are saying journalists shouldn't have published the cable which makes him look bad because they had a duty to determine their truth.

    Does not Assange, if he's to be understood as a "journalist" (), have the same responsibility?

    Or does that responsibility only apply when it makes the wrong people look bad?



    I didn't mention it because it is not a valid distinction.
    Oh, that's funny; I thought you "handled it." Yep, that's what you said:

    Your 'bold distinction' is really nothing more than a red herring but I have indeed handled it readily
    So, either you "handled it," or you didn't mention it. <------ (love that the text of this is "lamo")



    We have a free press specifically to act as a check against a government that relies on 'State Secrets"
    So what? That doesn't mean seeking and publishing state secrets wouldn't have been opposed by the Founders.


    I am concerned with addressing the issue in a way that will allow everyone to understand it fully, and find ethical common ground. Michael Moore also made his statement "as an example of what a rather prominent group of Founders thought about things at the time" but that has led to this entire discussion, so apparently a truly thoughtful person should have told you that such a distinction is redundant at this point.
    No, you're concerned with proppping up Wikileaks as a paragon of responsible journalism and defending what Moore said. If not, you'd recognize that what Moore said, "as an example of what a rather prominent group of Founders thought about things at the time," is exactly what I did with the Sedition Acts. Hmmm.


    Bluster is aggressive and ineffectual, so no I don't think that.
    Yet you engage in it anyway.


    I have added to this conversation with at least one unique observation of my own. Your accusation that I don't distinguish between bluster and debate is patently malicious and false.
    You simply don't like being called on it. But I'm sure you'll live through it.
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  3. #123
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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Thomas Jefferson alone wasn't "the Founders." And even he fully understood the need for secrecy in war and diplomacy.
    Madison also opposed the Sedition act, and considering he was the main author of the 1st amendment..well...In any case the Sedition act was repealed for obvious reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    You don't know that they were.
    I would agree that under the Sedition act wikileaks would be able to be charged. After all, what was published was scandalous. Which was one of the qualifiers in the Sedition Act. But what does it matter? Not only was it repealed a long time ago (after a new president was elected) but others that have been enacted that were like it also lost in the court room.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    "Honorable."

    Here's a nice rundown of what he's about:

    Commentary: 'International subversives' - UPI.com

    I guess you might consider him "honorable" if you share his agenda.
    While I wouldn't deem Assaunge as "honorable" I wouldn't be using that link of yours to use against the idea of him being honorable either. Seriously...a commentary? The need for proving claims in a commentary is about as stringent as living in a theives den and expecting there to be civilized rules.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    You didn't "handle it" at all. You merely gave Thomas Jefferson's opinion of the Sedition Acts. A truly thoughtful person would understand that the distinction was between a "free press" and "freedom to seek to obtain and publish state secrets," which you didn't even mention.
    And you should realize that the press do this all the time. While they certainly don't accomplish it like wikileaks has do you really think that if they had a chance to do what wikileaks did that they wouldn't jump on it? Everyone is always saying that the media are attention whores and will do anything to get that attention and their ratings up. Considering how much media attention has been given to wikileaks it is fair to say that any news agency that did what wikileaks did would have had lots of attention. The only real difference between wikileaks and any other news agency is that wikileaks thought up the idea first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    As for the Sedition Acts, whether or not they were Constitutional is entirely beside the point; whehter or not Assange himself might have violated them is also beside the point. Again, a truly thoughtful person would understand that I brought them up as an example of what a rather prominent group of Founders thought about things at the time, particularly vis-a-vis the distinction I made.
    You are correct. However it should also be noted that the Sedition Act didn't last very long. Which indicates that it wasn't very popular. It was probably pushed through like the HCR of today was.
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  4. #124
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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Why do you keep addressing this as though I approve of the Sedition Acts? I never said I did. That was never the point.

    As for the "commentary," it simply brings together a number of facts which speak to his "honorability" in this endeavor.

    (Not that he doesn't belie his own bull**** about "government accountability" by stating he's going after private organizations anyway.)
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Why do you keep addressing this as though I approve of the Sedition Acts? I never said I did. That was never the point.
    It was not my intention to imply that you approved of the Sedtion Act.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    As for the "commentary," it simply brings together a number of facts which speak to his "honorability" in this endeavor.
    With no proof of those "facts" backed up.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    It was not my intention to imply that you approved of the Sedtion Act.



    With no proof of those "facts" backed up.
    This gives the same facts, with references.

    Julian Assange - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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