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Thread: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    They would NOT countenance someone whose specific aim was to obtain and publish state secrets, under the guise of "freedom of the press" or otherwise. That's tubthumping asininity.

    They wanted to protect the freedom to criticize the government without punishment. That is in no way the same thing.
    Not just to criticize but to also hold the government accountable for wrong doing. (hence the reason that they used the term "watchdog") Do you deny this?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Not just to criticize but to also hold the government accountable for wrong doing. (hence the reason that they used the term "watchdog") Do you deny this?
    Which is stil not the same thing as being in the specific enterprise of obtaining state secrets for publication. That's espionage. That's the stuff that gets you hanged. .
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Which is stil not the same thing as being in the specific enterprise of obtaining state secrets for publication. That's espionage. That's the stuff that gets you hanged. .
    So is that a "no" you don't deny it?
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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    So is that a "no" you don't deny it?
    Did you read what I said? It doesn't matter if I deny it or not. It's not the same thing.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Did you read what I said? It doesn't matter if I deny it or not. It's not the same thing.
    Just please answer the question. I will show you how you are wrong on the other part after you do.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Why would I deny that the founders wanted the people to hold the government accountable and saw the press as a means to do so? (Though I don't know that any of them actually used the term "watchdog.") I already told you it doesn't matter.

    Do you deny that the Founders also agreed that a government could keep legitimate state secrets, especially where matters of diplomacy and war were concerned, and that stealing and exposing said secrets was espionage?
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Why would I deny that the founders wanted the people to hold the government accountable and saw the press as a means to do so? (Though I don't know that any of them actually used the term "watchdog.") I already told you it doesn't matter.
    Oof, can't anyone ever just say "no" anymore?

    Anyways yes it does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    Do you deny that the Founders also agreed that a government could keep legitimate state secrets, especially where matters of diplomacy and war were concerned, and that stealing and exposing said secrets was espionage?
    No, I don't deny it.

    For this part you are trying to state (or at the very least "strongly imply") that wikileaks stole information. They did not. Manning did. He stole it and released it into the public the moment he sent it to wikileaks. Or do you think that wikileaks is not a public organization? I would readily agree with you that the FF's would easily have convicted Manning of espionage and for being a traitor. However they would not have done anything to wikileaks because they are a part of the press and did not steal the information themselves.

    Which brings us to the other part that I said I would respond to.

    They would NOT countenance someone whose specific aim was to obtain and publish state secrets, under the guise of "freedom of the press" or otherwise.
    I would disagree. Otherwise wouldn't there be some kind of indication by them that the press should be restrained in this way? As you have noted before, it is kind of a big deal and would be stupid not to address somewhere. Indeed the following quote from Jefferson would indicate that they would allow such a newspaper if it existed in their day...

    “The basis of our government being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them.”
    One could easily argue that where he says "should have a government without newspapers" could be in reference to the state keeping secrets.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    There is one more question I would like to put before those that state wikileaks and the NY Times etc etc (anyone that publishes state secrets) should be put in prison before I leave for the night...

    Has there EVER been a case in the entire US history where a news agency was successfully convicted of a crime when that news agency has published state secrets?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    No, I said what I said -- that Wikileaks exists to obtain and publish state secrets. I didn't imply in the slightest that they go and do it themselves.

    The Founders wouldn't have to qualify such a thing because it would have been well-understood. There's the press, and then there's espionage.


    One could easily argue that where he says "should have a government without newspapers" could be in reference to the state keeping secrets.
    Not even a little.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Michael Moore Says Founders Would Have Been "Wikileakers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    There is one more question I would like to put before those that state wikileaks and the NY Times etc etc (anyone that publishes state secrets) should be put in prison before I leave for the night...

    Has there EVER been a case in the entire US history where a news agency was successfully convicted of a crime when that news agency has published state secrets?
    I never said anything about the NYT or any other legitimate press organization.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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