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Thread: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

  1. #51
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    Re: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    But this is exactly what happened with wikileaks. It entered the public domain the moment Manning took it and gave it out.
    No it didn't. If Manning had started a website where he uploaded all the documents, broadcasted it on Twitter, and sent the link to Julian Assange, then I would agree that Wikileaks wasn't doing anything wrong by simply relaying what was already known to the public. But that's not what happened. He sent the documents to Wikileaks and only to Wikileaks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang
    By your own logic wikileaks is not in the wrong. Manning as a member of the military with security clearance gave it to a publicly known site that was known to publish anything that it came across.
    Until the information showed up on Wikileaks' website, it was not public knowledge.
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    Re: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No it didn't. If Manning had started a website where he uploaded all the documents, broadcasted it on Twitter, and sent the link to Julian Assange, then I would agree that Wikileaks wasn't doing anything wrong by simply relaying what was already known to the public. But that's not what happened. He sent the documents to Wikileaks and only to Wikileaks.



    Until the information showed up on Wikileaks' website, it was not public knowledge.
    You know I'm not even sure how to respond to this honestly. The contradiction that you have going on here is so self evident that I have no idea how you are not seeing it. I'm relatively speechless.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  3. #53
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    Re: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    You know I'm not even sure how to respond to this honestly. The contradiction that you have going on here is so self evident that I have no idea how you are not seeing it. I'm relatively speechless.
    Mmmk. Normally when something is so self-evident, I'm able to at least figure out to what you're referring, even if I disagree. But yeah...no idea here. Apparently one of us has a very strange definition of self-evident.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 12-13-10 at 04:20 AM.
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    Re: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Mmmk. Normally when something is so self-evident, I'm able to at least figure out to what you're referring, even if I disagree. But yeah...no idea here. Apparently one of us has a very strange definition of self-evident.
    This is what's got me confused. I know from past postings that you are a very intelligent person so I just can't see why you don't see that you're being contradictory. Later on when I figure out how to respond to you in our little chat I'll post more on it. But for now...I'm still confused. lol

    For my defination of self evident in regards to our discussion.... Self evident = insanely obvious
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    Re: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Adam Serwer Archive | The American Prospect

    Is Julian Assange a nasty foreign person with crappy sexual ethics? Probably.

    Would prosecuting him compromise the ability of the press to hold government accountable to the people? Almost certainly.

    That's a far larger and more detrimental outcome than anything that Assange is capable of causing by leaking our information.
    you can also hold government accountable through assasination, and you can assasinate through nuclear detonation. not every method of "holding government accountable" is worth the costs. this is one of them. Assange and all of his likes at the NYTimes should be in prison.

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    Re: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    This isn't how the law works. If you conspire with someone to commit a crime or otherwise aid in the commission of a crime, you are also culpable.
    Wikileaks didn't aid the people in stealing the information. They did that all on their own. Wikileaks simply received the details and went public about it. Assuming that the U.S. can get their hands on Assange, the government will have a hard time pushing that argument.

    Besides, Assange isn't a U.S. citizen. Unless you can extradite him, your laws are dust in the wind on the international stage.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    This doesn't mean a damn thing for the freedom of the press, your attempts to conflate the two notwithstanding. "Freedom of the press" does not include the freedom to conspire to commit felonies by leaking classified information.
    Again, Wikileaks didn't leak the information, someone else did. They received it. It's an important distinction that you seem willing to gloss over. I can see how you would go for the conspiracy charges, but don't try to pretend that it's such a sure fire argument. The courts could easily side against you.

    The statement on their homepage says: "WikiLeaks is a non-profit media organization dedicated to bringing important news and information to the public. We provide an innovative, secure and anonymous way for independent sources around the world to leak information to our journalists. We publish material of ethical, political and historical significance while keeping the identity of our sources anonymous, thus providing a universal way for the revealing of suppressed and censored injustices."

    Therefore they are a press organization, and any actions taken against them have repercussions for the international press at large.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And you have no business misinterpreting our laws and telling us what to do.
    You have no business telling the rest of the world that we have to obey your domestic laws. Do what you want to your own people and betray your own constitution if you must, but stop trying to police the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Yes, he's certainly demonstrated that he's an honest and believable individual without any agenda. Your blind faith seems well placed.
    Putting words into my mouth again. Where did I say that Assange has no agenda? He clearly does. But that is not relevant to the legal arguments. Maybe you would see that if you weren't so stooped up to your eyeballs in bias and hubris.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    It makes much more sense to do whatever will improve security, rather than taking an "either/or" approach as you appear to be arguing for.
    Really? Even if the U.S. gets Assange, that doesn't mean anything. They can lock him up forever or black bag him. Wikileaks still exists and will continue to function. Your government can't stop them. Even if Wikileaks is disbanded, people already have the right idea. They can see that there is no stopping the underground system of information. As long as people are leaking info, there will be agencies to receive it, and there is quite literally nothing you can do about that. Unless your government is prepared to seize control of the entire telecommunications sector.

    So yeah, keep vilifying Assange all you want and pretending that I am putting him on some kind of pedestal. I do hope he escapes extradition and that the phony rape charges are dropped, but even if they're not and he disappears forever, I know that his work will continue to be done.

    I am far more interested in knowing what the world's governments are up to - including my own - than I am about the behaviours of one man. The way our governments are classifying their activities for no reason, combined with the fact that we are being denied basic freedom of information requests to their activities, is reason enough to increasingly turn to agencies like Wikileaks to fill the information gap.

    If our governments don't want to be clean and honest, then they can prepare to have all of their laundry aired against their will, which unfortunately will likely include information that does truly need to remain classified. If our governments were more honest, we wouldn't have to risk national security to find out what they are doing.

    We have a right to know. They are answerable to US, and until they realize that and start acting like our representatives again, we are going to obtain the info through any means possible. I will now use the statement that they always use against us when they increase "safety and security" in order to infringe upon our freedoms: if you are doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about.

    See how that works?

    What would "improve security" would be for you and every U.S. citizen to remember what is required of them to maintain a free and democratic way of life, and for your government to remember its function and duty, which is foremost to its people.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Incorrect.
    Denial of reality.
    Last edited by Orion; 12-13-10 at 06:58 PM.

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    Re: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    This is one of those times where we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. I doubt anyone has much sympathy for Assange -- and most would like to see him prosecuted for something. On the other hand, what about freedom of speech?

    Surely we have the right to protect our state secrets. Surely we do. That's on the one hand.

    On the other hand, how does our Fourth Estate go about letting the people know about real abuse, real dirty tricks? If the government can easily make a case of espionage against a news outlet (or anyone, for that matter), we will lose the safety net that a free press provides. It's kind of chilling, when one thinks about it.

    So. What's the answer?

    What if the information this guy put up named all of our foreign operatives? Gave their home addresses? Posted their pictures? What if it posted strategic military information re Afghanistan and Iraq? Cutting edge military technology?

    It's a very difficult puzzle. When one has to "write a law" surrounding these things, it becomes very difficult. Sort of like pornography. It's hard to define, but we all pretty much know it when we see it. Not a great example, but the only one I could think of. And the same problem applies, doesn't it? Your idea of pornography is different than mine. The government's idea of "this crosses the line" is different from mine, too.

    One of the answers simply has to be holding SIPRNet officials responsible for this debacle. We hear nothing about the stupid management that allowed this lowly military guy to copy secret stuff on a thumb drive and walk out the door. Somebody(ies) ought to go to jail....and it shouldn't just be what's 'is name.
    Why do you want to see him convicted? He didn't steal anything, someone LEAKED the info (hence WikiLeaks). Also making a law to try to convict him is admitting he didn't do anything wrong, and since he would have committed this "crime" before it was illegal it's even more illegal to try him for it. All this has shown is how backward the world still really is.
    "Myths and legends die hard in America. We love them for the extra dimension they provide, the illusion of near-infinite possibility to erase the narrow confines of most men's reality. Weird heroes and mould-breaking champions exist as living proof to those who need it that the tyranny of 'the rat race' is not yet final." - Hunter S. Thompson

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    Re: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Really? Even if the U.S. gets Assange, that doesn't mean anything. They can lock him up forever or black bag him. Wikileaks still exists and will continue to function. Your government can't stop them. Even if Wikileaks is disbanded, people already have the right idea. They can see that there is no stopping the underground system of information. As long as people are leaking info, there will be agencies to receive it, and there is quite literally nothing you can do about that. Unless your government is prepared to seize control of the entire telecommunications sector.

    So yeah, keep vilifying Assange all you want and pretending that I am putting him on some kind of pedestal. I do hope he escapes extradition and that the phony rape charges are dropped, but even if they're not and he disappears forever, I know that his work will continue to be done.

    I am far more interested in knowing what the world's governments are up to - including my own - than I am about the behaviours of one man. The way our governments are classifying their activities for no reason, combined with the fact that we are being denied basic freedom of information requests to their activities, is reason enough to increasingly turn to agencies like Wikileaks to fill the information gap.

    If our governments don't want to be clean and honest, then they can prepare to have all of their laundry aired against their will, which unfortunately will likely include information that does truly need to remain classified. If our governments were more honest, we wouldn't have to risk national security to find out what they are doing.

    We have a right to know. They are answerable to US, and until they realize that and start acting like our representatives again, we are going to obtain the info through any means possible. I will now use the statement that they always use against us when they increase "safety and security" in order to infringe upon our freedoms: if you are doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about.

    See how that works?

    What would "improve security" would be for you and every U.S. citizen to remember what is required of them to maintain a free and democratic way of life, and for your government to remember its function and duty, which is foremost to its people.
    Quoted for truth.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you can also hold government accountable through assasination, and you can assasinate through nuclear detonation. not every method of "holding government accountable" is worth the costs. this is one of them. Assange and all of his likes at the NYTimes should be in prison.
    i would like to amend this. the jerks at the NYTimes should be in prison. Assange isn't a citizen, and should be treated no differently than any other terrorist.

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    Re: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    i would like to amend this. the jerks at the NYTimes should be in prison. Assange isn't a citizen, and should be treated no differently than any other terrorist.
    Emotionalism at its finest ladies and gentlemen.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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