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Thread: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

  1. #21
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    Re: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Will never ever happen. The Espionage act (and similar laws world wide) are meant to be as they are, so governments can charge anyone they want when some information is leaked or stolen. Remember, any information within government can be labelled as secret or similar.. Bush was king of doing that... and once done, then anyone leaking the information can be charged with spying. In principle, a list over the presidents toilet visits could be labelled as secret and if leaked then said leaker's could be executed for treason.

    Basically it is a government "get revenge" card for exposing their wrong doings.
    That's why it should be clarified in law. If the attorney general wants to press charges against a whistleblower, he should have to prove to a court that A) there was no substantial wrongdoing in the documents, and B) the defendant could not reasonably have thought (or showed reckless disregard) that there was substantial wrongdoing in the documents. That would distinguish retaliatory charges against those who expose corruption, from those who release embarrassing information solely to throw a wrench into the system.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 12-09-10 at 09:03 PM.
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    Re: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    And this would be just like curtailing freedom of speech. Imagine someone saying the "N" word "just for the hell of it" and then being able to charge that person with a capitol crime. Is what the person said bad? Yep. Should he be punished for it? Nope. Because once you start curtailing freedoms you open the door for even more to happen....all in the name of "doing what you think is right". Remember, our Constitution favors individual rights...not majority "rights".
    The difference is that leaking state secrets is illegal, and saying the N word isn't, nor should it be.
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    Re: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The difference is that leaking state secrets is illegal, and saying the N word isn't, nor should it be.
    Considering that it was Manning that did the leaking and not wikileaks I don't see a difference when we are talking solely about wikileaks. If it had been FOX or MSNBC or CNN or any other official well known news agency the outcry for "treason" and all that crap wouldn't have been near as bad. If it was even mentioned at all.
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    Re: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Considering that it was Manning that did the leaking and not wikileaks I don't see a difference when we are talking solely about wikileaks.
    Wikileaks received the files and was certainly complicit. Just like if you knowing receive stolen property from someone else, you've committed a crime as well. Furthermore, it's not like the documents just fell into Wikileaks' lap. They have an organized campaign with a website that encourages people to break the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang
    If it had been FOX or MSNBC or CNN or any other official well known news agency the outcry for "treason" and all that crap wouldn't have been near as bad. If it was even mentioned at all.
    Well, no responsible media outlet would have published the documents at all. That's the whole reason Wikileaks exists...so that leakers have someone to irresponsibly publish their documents, no questions asked.
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    Re: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Wikileaks received the files and was certainly complicit. Just like if you knowing receive stolen property from someone else, you've committed a crime as well. Furthermore, it's not like the documents just fell into Wikileaks' lap. They have an organized campaign with a website that encourages people to break the law.
    Part in bold: The same could be said if the files were recieved by CNN or Fox. Yet they would get barely yelled at. When they are yelled at it would just be a token yelling.

    Part underlined: Ah but the two are not the same for the simple fact of the 1st amendment. One is allowed as a way to have the government accountable to the citizens. Which is what our Founding Fathers wanted, especially since the government is a public entity that is suppose to be "by the people, for the people". The other is about stolen items from a private individual. So you really can't compare the two.

    Part in Red: If you look at wikileaks about page they explicitly state that they do not encourage anyone to break the law. Now you may dismiss it as them lying if you wish, that is certainly your perogative. Just don't expect others to believe you when you state such.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Well, no responsible media outlet would have published the documents at all. That's the whole reason Wikileaks exists...so that leakers have someone to irresponsibly publish their documents, no questions asked.
    Good thing that you added "responsible". Since you did there's really no point in argueing about it as the word "responsible" is way to subjective for an actual debate on it. I would deem the NY Times as being responsible, yet you may not.
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    Re: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Considering that it was Manning that did the leaking and not wikileaks I don't see a difference when we are talking solely about wikileaks. If it had been FOX or MSNBC or CNN or any other official well known news agency the outcry for "treason" and all that crap wouldn't have been near as bad. If it was even mentioned at all.
    Where are the liberals on this site. What about truth to power.

    Have any of you heard of the Pentagon Papers. Probably more explosive than this stuff and we all applauded.

    It seems that the left is pretty much where the right was 40 years ago.

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    Re: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Where are the liberals on this site. What about truth to power.

    Have any of you heard of the Pentagon Papers. Probably more explosive than this stuff and we all applauded.

    It seems that the left is pretty much where the right was 40 years ago.
    Well, the Pentagon Papers were published to expose wrongdoing. This stuff was just publicized for the hell of it, and the State Department actually comes across looking great IMO. I'm much more sympathetic to those who publish government secrets for the purpose of righting a wrong, than to those who publish government secrets for personal fame or vendettas.
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    Re: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Well, the Pentagon Papers were published to expose wrongdoing. This stuff was just publicized for the hell of it, and the State Department actually comes across looking great IMO. I'm much more sympathetic to those who publish government secrets for the purpose of righting a wrong, than to those who publish government secrets for personal fame or vendettas.
    Personal motives aside, the fact that "liberals" are in favor of prosecuting someone to passing along embassing things with a dem administration in power seems to be the height of hypocricy.

  9. #29
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    Re: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Personal motives aside, the fact that "liberals" are in favor of prosecuting someone to passing along embassing things with a dem administration in power seems to be the height of hypocricy.
    Well, the files spanned both the Bush Administration AND the Clinton Administration...so I don't see why this is a partisan issue.

    And to the extent that there were embarrassing revelations, it was mostly either A) petty gossip, or B) secrets that the state had a legitimate interest in keeping secret. There was very little in the way of actual wrongdoing exposed.

    I don't see what's so hypocritical about that. Leaking documents to expose wrongdoing or potential wrongdoing is A-OK with me, but leaking documents to expose legitimate state secrets just for the hell of it is a major problem.
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    Re: The Espionage Act And WikiLeaks - Would it End Journalism As We Know It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Well, the files spanned both the Bush Administration AND the Clinton Administration...so I don't see why this is a partisan issue.

    And to the extent that there were embarrassing revelations, it was mostly either A) petty gossip, or B) secrets that the state had a legitimate interest in keeping secret. There was very little in the way of actual wrongdoing exposed.

    I don't see what's so hypocritical about that. Leaking documents to expose wrongdoing or potential wrongdoing is A-OK with me, but leaking documents to expose legitimate state secrets just for the hell of it is a major problem.
    First of all people should be able to discerb between the linker and the publisher of the leak. Wikileak is the latter. I am not sure that there is much or anything that could be called a state secret that someone should go to jail about.

    One thing this stuff exposes is how much is stamped secret when it really is not that sensitive.
    It seems that people are taking in what the government tells them like sheep. I expect that of conservatives. I am embarrassed to see so many so called liberals join in.

    With this type of thinking the New York Times would have been shut down 40 years ago.

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