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Thread: Two Major Conservative Obstacles Emerge To Tax Cut Compromise

  1. #111
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    Re: Two Major Conservative Obstacles Emerge To Tax Cut Compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    COMMITTEE ON RULES -



    Please note that the words in bold refer to OFTEN SUBJECT TO A FILIBUSTER and not the word ALWAYS. That is then where the 60 votes come up.

    But yet again you are getting bogged down in votes and historical details. The point is a clear one: the tax raise going into effect in a few weeks was part of the bill passed by the 107th Congress when republican George Bush was President, the GOP held the House, and there was a tie in the Senate but with a Republican VP available to break any tie.

    Arguing about Senate procedures is a red herring that changes nothing about who passed these tax increases in the first place. That is not and never was my point.

    Conservative - why are you so intent and deflecting the conversation from that fact?
    Do you even know what you posted? Read it again, cloture prevents a filibuster and you need 60 votes for cloture in the Senate. No bill can go to the floor of the Senate without cloture. Do you understand yet?

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    Re: Two Major Conservative Obstacles Emerge To Tax Cut Compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Argument and counter-argument...

    Do tax cuts cost...yes or no?

    People work to earn an income. Under state and/or federal constitutional authority or by state law, your income is taxed. These taxes provide a source of revenue for state and federal governments. Now, tax cuts are suppose to allow the wage earner to retain more of their income - keep more of what you earn. Regardless of the nature of the economy, generally speaking this is true. However, what tends to happen during a recession or when the government is running a budget deficit is tax cuts reduce the government's revenue. Reduced revenues along with increased state/federal spending equates to debt.

    Now, I understand the call for spending cuts, towit, if you're running a deficit the best way to reduce the debt is to reduce the amount of funds given to specific government programs or eliminate them completely. It's clear that in hard economic times, however, very few governing bodies are willing to cut programs they believe are necessary to provide aid to those individuals who are suffering economically. So, since the onset of the October 2008 recession where the deficit was already extremely high, our government had to act quickly in an attempt to inject capital into the economy otherwise face going into a depression. They (the Obama Administration) determined that the best way to do this was via public-private partnerships (meaning government contracts to private businesses) or via providing funds to the States for infrastructor projects. Corporate America - the private sector - could not correct itself because it (our financial sectors) were the problem (i.e., bad mortgage lending, over-extended credit, too much financial risk). That brings us up to today...

    Conservatives are tic'd because they consider allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire to be a "tax hike". But as we all know these taxes were due to expire at the end of the year, thereby resetting them back to where they were originally prior to 2003 (which was the second tax reduction authorized by former Pres. G. W. Bush). Compounding their anger is the fact that many entitlement programs, i.e,. unemployment benefits, are being authorized in a downed economy. As such, the combination of tax cuts on top of entitlements are adding to the deficit. How? Because the tax cuts are no longer offset by revenues that taxation without deficit spending would have ordinarily generated. As such, our government has to borrow money in order to make up the difference.

    So, yes, where ordinarily tax cuts would not cost the government a penny in spending when the economy is up, they do cost the government when the economy is down. Even if you cut spending in a down economy and still had tax cuts, if the government is running a deficit, eventually they'd have a significant reduction in revenues to work from which is exactly the case we find ourselves in today. To learn more on this matter, read this detailed review from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.
    So then when you get to keep more of what you earn do you need more or less govt. "help" and thus is tax cuts to you an expense to the govt? Can you explain why govt. revenue went up AFTER the JFK, Reagan, and GW Bush tax cuts?

    BEA links GDP and Receipts/Expense
    U.S. Department of Commerce. Bureau of Economic Analysis

    What really bothers me is the principle of the matter, taking money from one group and doing what the govt. wants with it instead of letting the people who earned it keep more of it. I have posted many times the line items for the U.S. Budget and there still seems to be a problem with many understanding use taxes vs. income taxes. If you earn income you are supposed to pay income taxes on that money and you don't pay use taxes unless you use the services, i.e. roads with the gasoline excise taxes, schools, police, fire with property taxes or assessed taxes, sales taxes on goods purchased.

    So, I disagree with the assessment that tax cuts are an expense. If they mean less revenue then you do less spending. We didn't need the kind of stimulus plan that Obama got passed and signed and the results prove it, 4 million more jobs lost after the stimulus was signed and 3 trillion added to the debt in two years.

    Sorry, but I have no interest in reading anything that defies logic and common sense. There is no line item for tax cuts being an expense but there is a line item for unemployment benefits. If you are going to get less money from tax cuts, then cut spending. You tell me if there is anything here you can cut?

    Expenses

    Defense 662.8
    International Affairs 38.6
    Gen. Science, Space 29.9
    Energy 4.6
    Natural resources/env 45.7
    Agriculture 14.0
    Commerce 292.5
    Transportation 84.4
    Community Dev 26.2
    Education/Train/Social 78.2
    Health 334.3
    Medicare 430.1
    Income Security 533.9
    Social Security 683.0
    Veterans Benefits 95.5
    Justice 53.4
    General Govt. 17.6
    Net Interest 190.9


    Total 3615.6

    Saying that there is nothing here to cut is absolutely incredible and violates logic and common sense.

    Now the real problem with the current deficit is there are 16+ million unemployed Americans not paying any income taxes and raising the taxes on anyone doesn't help put them back to work. In addition even if more money was collected there is no guarantee that it will go to reduce the deficit. Does anyone know where the TARP repayment went or the billions still remaining from the Stimulus that hasn't been spent? Instead of looking for money from one group why not look at the TARP and Stimulus funding and where the repayment and unspent money is?

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    Re: Two Major Conservative Obstacles Emerge To Tax Cut Compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That's a lot bigger than an extension of unemployment benefits, both in terms of dollars and in terms of politics. Tax cuts for the wealthy are basically the central plank of the Republican platform. Furthermore, extending them now increases the likelihood that they will be made permanent in 2012, and it makes Obama invested in defending the Republican position for the next two years. An extension of unemployment benefits, while modestly important for the short-term economic recovery, is not going to get most Democrats worked up. It almost certainly will not be extended again, and it's certainly not worth the cost of extending the Bush tax cuts.
    There is more to it than that, tax increases on any class violates the basic principles upon which this country's economy was built and sends the wrong message on so many avenues. Tax cuts are not an expense to the govt, and there is no guarantee it will increase revenue or that even if it does that it will lower the deficit. Can you explain to me where the TARP money went as well as the unspent stimulus. We just set a record in November for the highest deficit on record so should someone be asking where that money for repayment and unused stimulus went?

    This Administration has yet to be right on any issue yet for some reason people believe him now. 700 billion in tax increases over 10 years is 70 billion a year to attack the 1.3 trillion dollar deficit. Logic and common sense escapes a lot of people.

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    Re: Two Major Conservative Obstacles Emerge To Tax Cut Compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    So then when you get to keep more of what you earn do you need more or less govt. "help" and thus is tax cuts to you an expense to the govt? Can you explain why govt. revenue went up AFTER the JFK, Reagan, and GW Bush tax cuts?
    Sure. Incomes tax collection wasn't the only source of revenue for the government. You have the sell of bonds, for example, and the increase of other taxes such as the capital gains tax. There are lots of ways the government earns revenue. To say revenues increased only due to the reduction in payroll taxes is a false perception. But what Republicans would have one believe is individual tax cuts are the only source of revenue the government has. It is not.

    You also have a decrease in interest rates towards Treasure Bonds. That has far much more of an impact on government revenues than most anything else because the government sells so many of them to other countries as a means to pay down the debt or extend credit. There's also government exports, i.e., airframes (the sell of fighter, commercial and cargo planes), tanks, older-out dated warships, etc., etc., food...so many other things that earn the Treasure money.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 12-11-10 at 01:03 AM.

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    Re: Two Major Conservative Obstacles Emerge To Tax Cut Compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Do you even know what you posted? Read it again, cloture prevents a filibuster and you need 60 votes for cloture in the Senate. No bill can go to the floor of the Senate without cloture. Do you understand yet?
    Do you understand that cloture only has to be invoked if the filibuster is used? if it is NOT used, the the 60 vote threshold never ever comes into play.

    This is exactly what you do in thread after thread after thread. You attempt to derail the main idea by focusing on minor details that prove to be quicks and for everyone because they go nowhere.

    Here is the point and you fail to recognize it: the tax raise going into effect in a few weeks was part of the bill passed by the 107th Congress when republican George Bush was President, the GOP held the House, and there was a tie in the Senate but with a Republican VP available to break any tie.

    Deal with it ... don't deal with it. You are only making yourself look silly with this stuff.

    You continually confuse the environment in the Senate today with the environment in the 107th Congress a decade ago. You continue to apply the tactics of the party of No today, and pretend that they were commonplace a decade ago. And it does not matter either way because the tax raises were put in place a long time ago under a Republican President Bush and the 107th Congress.
    Last edited by haymarket; 12-11-10 at 08:59 AM.
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    Re: Two Major Conservative Obstacles Emerge To Tax Cut Compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Sure. Incomes tax collection wasn't the only source of revenue for the government. You have the sell of bonds, for example, and the increase of other taxes such as the capital gains tax. There are lots of ways the government earns revenue. To say revenues increased only due to the reduction in payroll taxes is a false perception. But what Republicans would have one believe is individual tax cuts are the only source of revenue the government has. It is not.

    You also have a decrease in interest rates towards Treasure Bonds. That has far much more of an impact on government revenues than most anything else because the government sells so many of them to other countries as a means to pay down the debt or extend credit. There's also government exports, i.e., airframes (the sell of fighter, commercial and cargo planes), tanks, older-out dated warships, etc., etc., food...so many other things that earn the Treasure money.
    If you went to the site I gave you and keep giving you will see that INCOME TAX REVENUE went up AFTER the tax rate cuts. Seems that is a hard concept to grasp. Income taxes are NOT Payroll taxes, FICA is. Never in my life have I had to work so hard to convince others that value of keeping more of their own money. this is unbelieveable.

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    Re: Two Major Conservative Obstacles Emerge To Tax Cut Compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Do you understand that cloture only has to be invoked if the filibuster is used? if it is NOT used, the the 60 vote threshold never ever comes into play.

    This is exactly what you do in thread after thread after thread. You attempt to derail the main idea by focusing on minor details that prove to be quicks and for everyone because they go nowhere.

    Here is the point and you fail to recognize it: the tax raise going into effect in a few weeks was part of the bill passed by the 107th Congress when republican George Bush was President, the GOP held the House, and there was a tie in the Senate but with a Republican VP available to break any tie.

    Deal with it ... don't deal with it. You are only making yourself look silly with this stuff.

    You continually confuse the environment in the Senate today with the environment in the 107th Congress a decade ago. You continue to apply the tactics of the party of No today, and pretend that they were commonplace a decade ago. And it does not matter either way because the tax raises were put in place a long time ago under a Republican President Bush and the 107th Congress.
    You couldn't be more wrong, it took 60 votes then just like it is now to get anything to the floor of the Senate. The sunset provision is the only way that this tax bill was allowed to the floor in an evenly divided Senate. That has been the rules of the Senate long before the 107th Congress took office. Why are you having a problem with this concept?

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    Re: Two Major Conservative Obstacles Emerge To Tax Cut Compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You couldn't be more wrong, it took 60 votes then just like it is now to get anything to the floor of the Senate. The sunset provision is the only way that this tax bill was allowed to the floor in an evenly divided Senate. That has been the rules of the Senate long before the 107th Congress took office. Why are you having a problem with this concept?
    Good lord man. It only takes sixty votes - the cloture rule - when a filibuster is invoked. Now today, the Republicans seem to invoke the filibuster on almost everything and they set a record for it last year and will set a record again this year. When you hear some news person say "they need sixty votes to bring this to the floor" or some variation of that, what they are saying is that under the GOP obstructionist tactics employed over the last two years, this has become commonplace and has become the defacto 'rule'. This is why you are confused.

    But do this for me please: provide clear and unambiguous language stating just what you claim - that you must have sixty votes to bring every bill to the floor for a vote and it has always been this way.

    I will await such evidence from you.
    Last edited by haymarket; 12-11-10 at 09:54 AM.
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    Re: Two Major Conservative Obstacles Emerge To Tax Cut Compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    If you went to the site I gave you and keep giving you will see that INCOME TAX REVENUE went up AFTER the tax rate cuts. Seems that is a hard concept to grasp. Income taxes are NOT Payroll taxes, FICA is. Never in my life have I had to work so hard to convince others that value of keeping more of their own money. this is unbelieveable.
    It is really hard to keep listening to people say they should "keep their own money". Try going to a fancy restaurant, have a fine meal, then tell the owner once you finish you're not paying. You feel you should keep your own money.

    You may not approve, but the government, elected by us spent the money. It is time to pick up the tab. The reality is that all of the tax cuts should have been allowed to expire unless congress came up with enough cuts to pay for them.

    Unless you feel it is OK to say, I won't pay send the bill to my kids then until we send people to congress to cut spending, we need to pay the tab.

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    Re: Two Major Conservative Obstacles Emerge To Tax Cut Compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    It is really hard to keep listening to people say they should "keep their own money". Try going to a fancy restaurant, have a fine meal, then tell the owner once you finish you're not paying. You feel you should keep your own money.

    You may not approve, but the government, elected by us spent the money. It is time to pick up the tab. The reality is that all of the tax cuts should have been allowed to expire unless congress came up with enough cuts to pay for them.

    Unless you feel it is OK to say, I won't pay send the bill to my kids then until we send people to congress to cut spending, we need to pay the tab.
    what we have issues with is that a system that once was fair was changed to a system where the many can constantly vote up the rates of the few because the many have more votes. Those in the top 5% are paying most of the federal income taxes and many in the bottom 95% are basically freeloaders



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