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Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

Patria Antiqua said:
A dog thanks his master even for scraps.

It's sickly and subservient, but its true.
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no its not true-your idiotic socialist rants are seen as insane by most people. in nature people like you would starve in a short period of time
 
Z3n said:
Listen. I understand what you are arguing but you need to understand far-left axioms before you go bashing Patria. From his logic private ownership is theft. A by product of an economic system and state that perpetuates it. You have no natural claim to ownership of resources, as far as the far-left is concerned.
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Oh I understand the inane position of the far left. its almost anarcho-nihilism. but thanks
 
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TurtleDude said:
no its not true-your idiotic socialist rants are seen as insane by most people. in nature people like you would starve in a short period of time
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Clearly, you've never owned a dog.

I really don't care if most people see me as insane. All that means is that the popular will is against me. In most cases, that means a person is onto something.
 
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Whovian said:
so you also consider yourself subservient?
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Yes.

I was born a serf to the capitalist class, and, barring a drastic change in my circumstances, I will die a serf to the capitalist class.
 
Patria Antiqua said:
I see socialism as a more useful way to advance a nation to first world status. Given the choice between living in a stone age society, and living in a modern society, I choose modernity.

Even so, it wouldn't break and reconstruct the system. Rather than exempt myself, I would rather work to create a society that ends the exploitation of those not lucky enough to be a mamber of the ruling class.
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There's always going to be a, "ruling class", even moreso under socialism. The difference is, you transfer the elitisim from the private sector to the government.

We have a government that protects us from the private sector elite. But, who is going to protect us from the government.

I hear about people, all the time, preaching socialism, but I rarely see them giving up their **** for the common good.
 
liblady said:
can you prove a link to validate that? and would you have a person making 25k a year pay the same % as a person making 250k a year, 0r 2.5MM a year?

show me the math.
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Lets say everyone paid 25% income taxes to the IRS. Even if someone only made 15,000 after taxes they would net 11,250. I'm sure that would qualify them for government assistance, but that way they would be at least footing part of the bill.
Someone making 250,000 would be paying 62,500, 1 million 250,000....
just thinking...
There would be little to no incentive not to work or not to continue to strive for even more.
The more successful the more prosperity for the whole country.
 
Patria Antiqua said:
I see socialism as a more useful way to advance a nation to first world status. Given the choice between living in a stone age society, and living in a modern society, I choose modernity.

Even so, it wouldn't break and reconstruct the system. Rather than exempt myself, I would rather work to create a society that ends the exploitation of those not lucky enough to be a mamber of the ruling class.
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Name a socialist country that has achieved first world status.
 
drz-400 said:
Name a socialist country that has achieved first world status.
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Strawman. Socialism immediately follows the technlogical modernizations of neoliberalism. By design modernity of late-capitalism creates further income inequality, which socialism solves.

The logic of orthodox Marxism is: once a society has moved into the pinnacle of advanced society and technology, inequality will widen due to permanent unemployment and automation to remain competition. Eventually material conditions create inevitable working-class revolution. :D
 
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Patria Antiqua said:
Yes.

I was born a serf to the capitalist class, and, barring a drastic change in my circumstances, I will die a serf to the capitalist class.
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The only person that can change your circumstances, is you.

Patria Antiqua said:
Clearly, you've never owned a dog.

I really don't care if most people see me as insane. All that means is that the popular will is against me. In most cases, that means a person is onto something.
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I don't think anyone sees you as insane...:rofl
 
Barbbtx said:
Lets say everyone paid 25% income taxes to the IRS. Even if someone only made 15,000 after taxes they would net 11,250. I'm sure that would qualify them for government assistance, but that way they would be at least footing part of the bill.
Someone making 250,000 would be paying 62,500, 1 million 250,000....
just thinking...
There would be little to no incentive not to work or not to continue to strive for even more.
The more successful the more prosperity for the whole country.
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Save your breath, Barb. It's less to with everyone paying their, "fair share", and more to do with soaking the rich. Because, as we all know, rich folks are evil.
 
Patria Antiqua said:
Clearly, you've never owned a dog.

I really don't care if most people see me as insane. All that means is that the popular will is against me. In most cases, that means a person is onto something.
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I have owned four in the last 10 years, sadly we lost one last friday but she was 15 so it was time

you are insane with your hatred of the current system

what you want will never exist and never has. what you are on might be a Controlled substance:mrgreen:
 
Patria Antiqua said:
Yes.

I was born a serf to the capitalist class, and, barring a drastic change in my circumstances, I will die a serf to the capitalist class.
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The "capitalist class" changes yearly, monthly and daily. Personally, I am thankful for my position is society. I feel privileged to be born in a country such as the US.
 
Patria Antiqua said:
Yes.

I was born a serf to the capitalist class, and, barring a drastic change in my circumstances, I will die a serf to the capitalist class.
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be a good peasant and fetch me a cup of coffee!
 
apdst said:
There's always going to be a, "ruling class", even moreso under socialism. The difference is, you transfer the elitisim from the private sector to the government.

We have a government that protects us from the private sector elite. But, who is going to protect us from the government.

I hear about people, all the time, preaching socialism, but I rarely see them giving up their **** for the common good.
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As long as that's your attitude, I suppose that is true. There will be a ruling class as long as people are willing to tolerate it.
 
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Nothing like arguments for state socialism. I can at least understand libertarian socialism, but transfering resource ownership to the state? lol. Socialized property should belong to the community--commune. I love arguments like this it basically turns into utopian thought lol!
 
TurtleDude said:
be a good peasant and fetch me a cup of coffee!
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You're probably a serf, too.
drz-400 said:
The "capitalist class" changes yearly, monthly and daily. Personally, I am thankful for my position is society. I feel privileged to be born in a country such as the US.
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It actually doesn't change all that much, as far as I can tell. Nobody has ever bothered to substantiate this idea that anyone who works hard enough will the new CEO of Walmart.

It doesn't matter if the slave can become the master, slavery is still unjustified.
 
Patria Antiqua said:
As long as that's your attitude, I suppose that is true. There will be a ruling class as long as people are willing to tolerate it.
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And, we saw on November 2, of this year, that the American people will only tolerate so much bull**** from the, "ruling class".

I'm still trying to figure out where you're coming from. On one hand, you hate the, "ruling class", and then on the other hand you seem perfectly willing to give over all our wealth to the government. Do we really want politicians to control the nation's wealth?
 
Z3n said:
Nothing like arguments for state socialism. I can at least understand libertarian socialism, but transfering resource ownership to the state? lol. Socialized property should belong to the community--commune. I love arguments like this it basically turns into utopian thought lol!
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You either throw your lot in with the state, or you leave the fate of the nation in the hands of its people.

I don't trust the many, do you? If there's anything we know that can put a stop to the law of the jungle, it's government.
 
apdst said:
And, we saw on November 2, of this year, that the American people will only tolerate so much bull**** from the, "ruling class".

I'm still trying to figure out where you're coming from. On one hand, you hate the, "ruling class", and then on the other hand you seem perfectly willing to give over all our wealth to the government. Do we really want politicians to control the nation's wealth?
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As far as I'm concerned ruling class as a method of economic determinism consists of BOTH the state and the private sector. The logic of these arguments is that in order to abolish working class alienation and wage slavery we need to abolish the market, the state, capital etc. Inequality and competition being replaced with equality and cooperation remedies societal ill.
 
apdst said:
And, we saw on November 2, of this year, that the American people will only tolerate so much bull**** from the, "ruling class".

I'm still trying to figure out where you're coming from. On one hand, you hate the, "ruling class", and then on the other hand you seem perfectly willing to give over all our wealth to the government. Do we really want politicians to control the nation's wealth?
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The American people demonstrated on that day that they are deeply, deeply mislead, and very deluded about where the real tyranny comes from in this country. The despots in this country aren't in the White House (at least, not directly). They are the fatcat CEOs and hedge fund managers.
 
Z3n said:
Strawman. Socialism immediately follows the technlogical modernizations of neoliberalism. By design modernity of late-capitalism creates further income inequality, which socialism solves.

The logic of orthodox Marxism is: once a society has moved into the pinnacle of advanced society and technology, inequality will widen due to permanent unemployment and automation to remain competition. Eventually material conditions create inevitable working-class revolution. :D
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How was this a strawman then?

Patria Antiqua said "I see socialism as a more useful way to advance a nation to first world status."

"Given the choice between living in a stone age society, and living in a modern society, I choose modernity."

I ask for an example.

Perhaps the better argument would have been:

Market economies have allowed most countries to modernize and become first world nations. There are negatives to market economies such as inequality. Socialism can help this.
 
Patria Antiqua said:
You either throw your lot in with the state, or you leave the fate of the nation in the hands of its people.

I don't trust the many, do you? If there's anything we know that can put a stop to the law of the jungle, it's government.
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I don't trust state authority ever. You don't trust the many because you think of the many as needing to be intellectually capable to understand the logic of the far-left, dialectical materialism, exploitation, domination etc. They don't need to understand on an intellectual basis what you are arguing, just be motivated by material conditions to move to a socialist state. And, as you note, 'the many' denotes barbarism and violence; mob rule etc, but Marx argues this disappears when capital is abolished because there is no basis for material conflict anymore.
 
Patria Antiqua said:
As long as that's your attitude, I suppose that is true. There will be a ruling class as long as people are willing to tolerate it.
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well when faced with the undeniable fact that there is going to be a ruling class it might as well be based on a natural order and free market rather than the artificial ordering that a government appealing to the lowest denominator does.

and faced with that reality, the best thing to do is to do your damndest to be a ruler rather than a peasant

Peasant: How do you know he is king

Other Peasant: Because he's not down here covered in sh it!!
 
Patria Antiqua said:
It's not the idea of working for a living, it's the relationship between capital and labor.


You'd take control of corporations from private owners and turn them over to state control. Factories, office buildings, hotels, everything. You take them, and make them the engines of the country, not just of capitalist barons. You take these businesses, and you make them democratic in nature, rather than having terms dictated to you by those fortunate enough to have capital.

That way, you remove the indignity and serfdom from the necessity of labor, and the profits can be divided in a manner that is more reflective of who does the actual labor.
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I'll play along for a minute.
Do the lazy workers get as much as those who work harder?
 
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