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Thread: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

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    Re: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    And, we saw on November 2, of this year, that the American people will only tolerate so much bull**** from the, "ruling class".

    I'm still trying to figure out where you're coming from. On one hand, you hate the, "ruling class", and then on the other hand you seem perfectly willing to give over all our wealth to the government. Do we really want politicians to control the nation's wealth?
    The American people demonstrated on that day that they are deeply, deeply mislead, and very deluded about where the real tyranny comes from in this country. The despots in this country aren't in the White House (at least, not directly). They are the fatcat CEOs and hedge fund managers.

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    Re: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    Strawman. Socialism immediately follows the technlogical modernizations of neoliberalism. By design modernity of late-capitalism creates further income inequality, which socialism solves.

    The logic of orthodox Marxism is: once a society has moved into the pinnacle of advanced society and technology, inequality will widen due to permanent unemployment and automation to remain competition. Eventually material conditions create inevitable working-class revolution.
    How was this a strawman then?

    Patria Antiqua said "I see socialism as a more useful way to advance a nation to first world status."

    "Given the choice between living in a stone age society, and living in a modern society, I choose modernity."

    I ask for an example.

    Perhaps the better argument would have been:

    Market economies have allowed most countries to modernize and become first world nations. There are negatives to market economies such as inequality. Socialism can help this.

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    Re: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Patria Antiqua View Post
    You either throw your lot in with the state, or you leave the fate of the nation in the hands of its people.

    I don't trust the many, do you? If there's anything we know that can put a stop to the law of the jungle, it's government.
    I don't trust state authority ever. You don't trust the many because you think of the many as needing to be intellectually capable to understand the logic of the far-left, dialectical materialism, exploitation, domination etc. They don't need to understand on an intellectual basis what you are arguing, just be motivated by material conditions to move to a socialist state. And, as you note, 'the many' denotes barbarism and violence; mob rule etc, but Marx argues this disappears when capital is abolished because there is no basis for material conflict anymore.
    Don't tread on me= Don't tread on my corporate masters

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    Re: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Patria Antiqua View Post
    As long as that's your attitude, I suppose that is true. There will be a ruling class as long as people are willing to tolerate it.
    well when faced with the undeniable fact that there is going to be a ruling class it might as well be based on a natural order and free market rather than the artificial ordering that a government appealing to the lowest denominator does.

    and faced with that reality, the best thing to do is to do your damndest to be a ruler rather than a peasant

    Peasant: How do you know he is king

    Other Peasant: Because he's not down here covered in sh it!!



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    Re: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Patria Antiqua View Post
    It's not the idea of working for a living, it's the relationship between capital and labor.


    You'd take control of corporations from private owners and turn them over to state control. Factories, office buildings, hotels, everything. You take them, and make them the engines of the country, not just of capitalist barons. You take these businesses, and you make them democratic in nature, rather than having terms dictated to you by those fortunate enough to have capital.

    That way, you remove the indignity and serfdom from the necessity of labor, and the profits can be divided in a manner that is more reflective of who does the actual labor.
    I'll play along for a minute.
    Do the lazy workers get as much as those who work harder?
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    Re: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    How was this a strawman then?

    Patria Antiqua said "I see socialism as a more useful way to advance a nation to first world status."

    "Given the choice between living in a stone age society, and living in a modern society, I choose modernity."

    I ask for an example.

    Perhaps the better argument would have been:

    Market economies have allowed most countries to modernize and become first world nations. There are negatives to market economies such as inequality. Socialism can help this.
    Right. A country becomes 1st world through market modernizations and then once it has achieved technological stagnation it becomes time for revolutionary activity.
    Don't tread on me= Don't tread on my corporate masters

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    Re: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    I'll play along for a minute.
    Do the lazy workers get as much as those who work harder?
    From each according to their ability-to each according to their need

    the lazy ones tend to be the neediest!



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    Re: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you confuse what is and what should be--a government should be treated the same as any other service provider. YOu should get what you pay for and not have to pay for the services others get unless it can be proven they have already done something for you.

    can you tell me why one group of people should have to pay for the services others use-others who are not veterans or disabled firefighters etc. ie people who have done nothing for those charged with paying for them
    And outside of the Mental World of Turtle, where would I go to see the real world model of this?
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    Re: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by turtledude View Post
    well when faced with the undeniable fact that there is going to be a ruling class it might as well be based on a natural order and free market rather than the artificial ordering that a government appealing to the lowest denominator does.

    And faced with that reality, the best thing to do is to do your damndest to be a ruler rather than a peasant

    peasant: How do you know he is king

    other peasant: Because he's not down here covered in sh it!!
    omg monty python yesss
    Don't tread on me= Don't tread on my corporate masters

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    Re: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    I'll play along for a minute.
    Do the lazy workers get as much as those who work harder?
    I don't see why that is necessarily so. As I said, the democratic nature of the working enviroment can ensure that pay reflects labor contributed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    I don't trust state authority ever. You don't trust the many because you think of the many as needing to be intellectually capable to understand the logic of the far-left, dialectical materialism, exploitation, domination etc. They don't need to understand on an intellectual basis what you are arguing, just be motivated by material conditions to move to a socialist state. And, as you note, 'the many' denotes barbarism and violence; mob rule etc, but Marx argues this disappears when capital is abolished because there is no basis for material conflict anymore.
    Yes, but if you see things as they are now, surely material conditions would move people to socialism? Even if they were, how could we be so sure that greed would not cause them to revert to some form of atavistic capitalism? Even now, the first amendment is what protects the freedom for those with unpopular views to speak. If people were not taught to worship it, do you think that people would respect the right of people to advocate socialism now?

    Yes, the state is just as susceptible to abusive behavior as the many, but the state is also the only thing that can uphold that thin veneer of civilization. We could wait thousands of years for people to see the truth of socialism, but there is action that needs to be taken now.
    Last edited by Patria Antiqua; 12-07-10 at 06:28 PM.

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