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Thread: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

  1. #101
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    Re: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Actually its not, because "fairness" is an intangiable abstraction that is identified differently based on the vantage point of an individual.

    You see "fairness" in taking money from people you think don't deserve it and giving it to "less fortunate.". Where as others see taking money from people who have worked to earn said money and giving it to people who haven't worked to earn it as inherently "unfair". Your particular viewpoint of what is or isn't fair is, frankly, irrelevant and far from being some kind of universal guiding tool.

    Fairness, like beauty and many other things, is in the eye of the beholder. The issue with trying to pass or push for any kind of government legislation based on "fairness" is the fact that its a meaningless word that could mean a dozen things to a dozen people.
    You still haven't told me why the unfairness of a situation isn't reason to overthrow it. All you have told me is that some may disagree with my view of fairness.

    This is irrelevant to me. There will always be people with inconvenient or backward ways of thinking. As far as I'm concerned, that some are born serfs and others are born masters is not a fair system, and that view holds regardless of who does or does not "work" for their money.

    In any event, wealth gained through the exploitation of those who create it (the workers) is not wealth anyone has a right to. It is unarguable that capitalism makes it impossible for anyone to be paid a fair price for their work.
    Last edited by Patria Antiqua; 12-07-10 at 04:48 PM.

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    Re: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Actually, every single word of it is true. If it is not, please tell me where it is inaccurate.

    IF you are so able to do. Feel free to dust off some of those old Ivy League college tomes now being used to press old $10,000.00 bills for the needed information.
    you cannot prove your concept of "fair" is "correct"

    do pay attention.



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    Re: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

    obama doesn't compromise, he caves

    when he's not doing that, he CRAMS (as in health care)

    in congress they call it "reconciliation"

    in the media it's often referred to as "the nuclear option"

    remember?

    literally less than 24 hours before ahab crammed his great whale down america's gagging gullet he was willing to DEEM the damn thing

    Why Democrats Deem They Need "Deem and Pass" on Health Care | VF Daily | Vanity Fair

    never before has so major a reform been passed on to the american people along lines so UNCOMPROMISINGLY partisan

    lbj's civil rights act, 1964, for example---a HIGHER proportion of republicans than democrats voted with the escalator of jfk's war in nam, 82% of senate republicans and 80% in the house, vs 69 and 63% from the party of jackson, respectively

    Civil Rights Act of 1964 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    medicare, 1965---43% of republican senators voted aye, 51% in the house

    Answers.com - How many Republicans voted Yes on the Medicare Act of 1965

    social security, 1935---fdr managed the support of 84% and 76% of house and senate R's, respectively

    Social Security Online - HISTORY: Vote tallies on 1935 law

    contrast obamacare, a major overhaul of 1/6 of the american economy---it was RECONCILED thru senate with ZERO support from the party of lincoln, and in pelosi's place only mr cao, the vietnamese seminarian from orleans, switched over

    it is what it is

    and now it's all coming home to roost

    when obama is not deeming and cramming he's caving

    that's his RECORD

    live it, libs, love it, it's ALL yours (and joseph cao's)

    and TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH, why, they're ALL obama's/mcconnell's/boehner's

    party on

  4. #104
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    Re: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Patria Antiqua View Post
    You still haven't told me why the unfairness of a situation isn't reason to overthrow it. All you have told me is that some may disagree with my view of fairness.

    This is irrelevant to me. There will always be people with inconvenient or backward ways of thinking. As far as I'm concerned, that some are born serfs and others are born masters is not a fair system, and that view holds regardless of who does or does not "work" for their money.

    In any event, wealth gained through the exploitation of those who create it (the workers) is not wealth anyone has a right to. It is unarguable that capitalism makes it impossible for anyone to be paid a fair price for their work.
    Wanna put yourself in a position where you don't get paid a fair wage for your work? Start your own business.

    There are businesses, all over this country, today, that have to choose between making payroll, paying taxes and paying bills. Alot of them can't do all three and that's before the business owner even thinks about getting his, "fair share". Yet, some folks are cool with raising taxes on these businesses.

    If ya'll were really interested in people, "paying their fair share", you would insist that people who have never paid taxes in their lives, start paying a couple grand a year.

    But, that would be counterproductive your strategy in the class war.
    Last edited by apdst; 12-07-10 at 05:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you cannot prove your concept of "fair" is "correct"

    do pay attention.
    What are you talking about? what "your concept of fair"?
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    Re: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Patria Antiqua View Post
    You still haven't told me why the unfairness of a situation isn't reason to overthrow it. All you have told me is that some may disagree with my view of fairness.
    So you're suggesting if you think something is unfair you should try to overthrow it? Heh, I have no issue with you thinking that. I think it’s an extremely unwise thing to base an attempted “overthrow” on because there’s not been a time in the history of this country, and unlikely to be a time anytime in the forseeable future, where there is something so vastly and hugely universally “unfair” as to cause a revolt to the level you speak of. So your attempts at “overthrowing” will be with a relative minority that is ill equipped to do such with the majority of the citizen base disagreeing with your actions to varying desgrees.

    I’m not saying its not a reason, I’m saying it’s a dumb reason 95% of the time.

    This is irrelevant to me. There will always be people with inconvenient or backward ways of thinking.
    "inconvenient or backwards" translates to "doesn't think like I do".

    That's going to really get you far I'm sure.

    As far as I'm concerned, that some are born serfs and others are born masters is not a fair system, and that view holds regardless of who does or does not "work" for their money.
    And to me, some having to toil to support those that refuse to put forth at the very least an equal amount of effort will never be a fair system, and that view holds regardless of who or who doesn't have an "equal" life style.

    In any event, wealth gained through the exploitation of those who create it (the workers) is not wealth anyone has a right to. It is unarguable that capitalism makes it impossible for anyone to be paid a fair price for their work.
    Again, exploitation is another subjective word that is different to different people. I say those that are ingenuitive, intelligent, and motivated enough to create a situation where they can both employee others while making a comfortable profit for themselves earns that profit through his use of his own talents, skills, and situation. I think it is most "fair" that people are free to attempt to leverage those things, or improve them, to create such a situation if they can and that those who choose to not and simply wish to skate by may also do so, but must suffer the consequences and bonuses of skating by just as those who use their ingenuity must suffer the consequences and bonsues relating to that. I think its impossible to create a wholey "fair" system that is fair at all times, and as such striving for something based singularly on fairness is doomed to failure and will do nothing but institute the type of unfairness that the individual in control is most happy. Essentially, rather than unfairness coming about due to your own actions or due to simple luck and circumstance, it comes about due to the manipulations and creation of someone else that controls said situation through the government.

    Again, fairness is worthless as a basis for political change.

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    Re: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Patria Antiqua View Post
    It is unarguable that capitalism makes it impossible for anyone to be paid a fair price for their work.
    Not arguable?

    Name five non-capitalist countries where people are "paid a fair price for their work." In which countries are workers paid the fairest wages?

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    Re: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    why not answer the question?
    Originally Posted by liblady
    how is paying a fair share punishing anyone?

    I'm not against people paying a "fair" share. Everyone should pay the same % regardless of income. That's fair.
    When those who earn more are taxed at a higher rate it is punishing success.
    Catawa is my favorite bleeding heart liberal.
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    Re: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    Originally Posted by liblady
    how is paying a fair share punishing anyone?

    I'm not against people paying a "fair" share. Everyone should pay the same % regardless of income. That's fair.
    When those who earn more are taxed at a higher rate it is punishing success.
    ok.....let's all pay 50%.........how would that work for you?

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Tentative agreement reached on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Not arguable?

    Name five non-capitalist countries where people are "paid a fair price for their work." In which countries are workers paid the fairest wages?
    You will never find one until there is a socialist country.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So you're suggesting if you think something is unfair you should try to overthrow it? Heh, I have no issue with you thinking that. I think it’s an extremely unwise thing to base an attempted “overthrow” on because there’s not been a time in the history of this country, and unlikely to be a time anytime in the forseeable future, where there is something so vastly and hugely universally “unfair” as to cause a revolt to the level you speak of. So your attempts at “overthrowing” will be with a relative minority that is ill equipped to do such with the majority of the citizen base disagreeing with your actions to varying desgrees.

    I’m not saying its not a reason, I’m saying it’s a dumb reason 95% of the time.



    "inconvenient or backwards" translates to "doesn't think like I do".

    That's going to really get you far I'm sure.



    And to me, some having to toil to support those that refuse to put forth at the very least an equal amount of effort will never be a fair system, and that view holds regardless of who or who doesn't have an "equal" life style.



    Again, exploitation is another subjective word that is different to different people. I say those that are ingenuitive, intelligent, and motivated enough to create a situation where they can both employee others while making a comfortable profit for themselves earns that profit through his use of his own talents, skills, and situation. I think it is most "fair" that people are free to attempt to leverage those things, or improve them, to create such a situation if they can and that those who choose to not and simply wish to skate by may also do so, but must suffer the consequences and bonuses of skating by just as those who use their ingenuity must suffer the consequences and bonsues relating to that. I think its impossible to create a wholey "fair" system that is fair at all times, and as such striving for something based singularly on fairness is doomed to failure and will do nothing but institute the type of unfairness that the individual in control is most happy. Essentially, rather than unfairness coming about due to your own actions or due to simple luck and circumstance, it comes about due to the manipulations and creation of someone else that controls said situation through the government.

    Again, fairness is worthless as a basis for political change.
    It's the noble's duty, my friend. It's a somewhat feudal idea, but those that are priviliged as noble's are forced to look after the peasantry. If you are going to live in a slave/master society, then the masters are at least obligated to support the slave.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Wanna put yourself in a position where you don't get paid a fair wage for your work? Start your own business.
    There are businesses, all over this country, today, that have to choose between making payroll, paying taxes and paying bills. Alot of them can't do all three and that's before the business owner even thinks about getting his, "fair share". Yet, some folks are cool with raising taxes on these businesses.

    If ya'll were really interested in people, "paying their fair share", you would insist that people who have never paid taxes in their lives, start paying a couple grand a year.

    But, that would be counterproductive your strategy in the class war.
    No, but thank you. I despise being a slave, but what I despise more is being the slave driver.

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