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Thread: CBS News Poll: Most Oppose GOP Tax Plan

  1. #161
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    Re: CBS News Poll: Most Oppose GOP Tax Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Sorry, I didn't mean to say federal - what I meant was effective average tax rate, to include state and local... how much of your income is consumed by government.
    Well, that is hard to say. State and local taxes vary so much across the country it's hard to make such a broad assertion. No question that parts of the country, like NYC have record high effective rates for their residents. But other states like Wyoming have very low.

    But at a federal level we have likely one of the lowest effective averages. Tax expenditures alone cost us over $1 trillion. I got clients who are making exorbitant sums of cash who's effective rates are well below 20%.

    CBO has data on the effective federal tax rate, but it only goes back to 1979. You can't really "eyeball it" using the top rate.
    But you can when you account for tax expenditures which have grown and grown and grown.

    As you say deductions and credits varied considerably.
    Not so much. Deductions and credits have expanded to likely record proportions. The US government forgoes over a trillion in taxes alone by such reductions to taxable income and taxes. If we got rid of all tax expenditures, we could dramatically close the deficit not to mention take down a large percent of the debt within 5 years.

    So did the brackets. For example, the 90+% rate you speak of affected very, very few people - you'd have have an income of about 3.75 million dollars.
    True, but that 90% and the brackets down to 60% did affect a large percent of people over the time they were enacted.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: CBS News Poll: Most Oppose GOP Tax Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I have looked and looked and cannot find those rights you previously listed in the Constitution.
    Did I say they were in the Constitution? And if you were looking for them there....well...nevermind. I'll be nice. :-)
    Now, are you saying we do not have those inalianable rights?
    Catawa is my favorite bleeding heart liberal.
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    Re: CBS News Poll: Most Oppose GOP Tax Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by WeAreReborn View Post
    Isn't the right to life the right to food, shelter and healthcare? All three of those guarantee such a right. Though education is not covered, do you think it should be privatized? If it is done so, the poor class wouldn't be able to afford it, the majority of labor would be unskilled and more jobs would be outsourced.
    It means no one has the right to take your life. It's your job to feed, shelter , and cloth yourself. If you want healthcare, and an education, figure out a way to pay for it. What? You think the government is your Mommy?
    Catawa is my favorite bleeding heart liberal.
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    Re: CBS News Poll: Most Oppose GOP Tax Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    Now, are you saying we do not have those inalianable rights?
    Oh we have the rights. They just aren't inalienable. Nature shows that all "rights" are based upon the capacity of force to ensure them. The Constitution is just a piece of paper. Without people willing to enforce by violence if necessary the rights written on Constitution, the rights do not exist.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  5. #165
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    Re: CBS News Poll: Most Oppose GOP Tax Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Tax revenue might be "the lowest in 60 years" because the economy sucks worse than it has in 60 years. People without jobs don't pay income taxes. People without money don't spend as much.

    The overall effective federal tax rate is still quite high from an historical standpoint -- and will remain so despite changes to federal income taxes mostly because of the costs of social insurance programs.
    No, its not. The effective tax rates are the lowest in 60 years. I am not talking about tax revenues, I am talking about taxes paid as a percentage of income.

    Note the table of effective tax rates by income bracket since 1979.

    http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=456

    http://www.visualizingeconomics.com/...-income-group/

    I will produce one that goes back to 1950.

    It is time for conservatives to stop whining and just pay their share of citizenship.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 12-14-10 at 03:46 AM.

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    Re: CBS News Poll: Most Oppose GOP Tax Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Cole View Post
    You seem to be consumed with you own impression of how valuable you are to the job market. If you can't find a ****ing job in two ****ing years maybe you need to rethink how precious you really are. 90% of the population has managed to find work...



    .
    No, 90% of the population has not "managed to find work.
    1. The 10% figure is the government figure which does not include "discouraged workers" who are no longer looking (in fact, quite likely most of the unemployed are in this category - that would put the rate at well above 20%.
    2. The rate is likely higher than that because 8 million illegal aliens are considered part of the employed sector, and, as foreign nationals, they shouldn't be positively be figured in as US employment.
    3. % get even higher when you consider legal aliens in the US on work permits (why are these still being granted ?)
    4. The % gets still higher when you consider foreign workers outside the US, but working for US companies - figured in as US employment. (NOT !)
    5. The scenario I described wasn't supposed to be me. It fits millions of unemployed Americans.
    6. Most of the 90% you mention (which is really about 60%), has not "managed to find work" because they have been on their jobs for longer than 1 year (the time frame used to tabulate unemployment statistics - like your 90%). So that leaves us with what ? 20% who have "managed to find work" ? I'd guess it's more like 10%.
    Last edited by Protectionist; 12-14-10 at 03:47 AM.

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    Re: CBS News Poll: Most Oppose GOP Tax Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Well, that is hard to say. State and local taxes vary so much across the country it's hard to make such a broad assertion. No question that parts of the country, like NYC have record high effective rates for their residents. But other states like Wyoming have very low.
    It's not really that hard if you're considering the aggregate value and looking at broad changes over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    But at a federal level we have likely one of the lowest effective averages. Tax expenditures alone cost us over $1 trillion. I got clients who are making exorbitant sums of cash who's effective rates are well below 20%.
    I believe you, although a few case studies of individuals in the higher income brackets isn't a very convincing case for assessing historical averages.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    But you can when you account for tax expenditures which have grown and grown and grown.
    They grew and grew and grew and then were cut significantly in 1986 with the Reagan tax cuts, which were designed to lower brackets but bring in the same amount of revenue through a reduction of deductions, credits, and exemptions. They're no doubt growing again, but we'd really need to take a look at the actual data to be able to make any credible assumptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Not so much. Deductions and credits have expanded to likely record proportions. The US government forgoes over a trillion in taxes alone by such reductions to taxable income and taxes. If we got rid of all tax expenditures, we could dramatically close the deficit not to mention take down a large percent of the debt within 5 years.
    I can't even imagine the negative consequences of such a proposal... talk about a housing crisis.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    True, but that 90% and the brackets down to 60% did affect a large percent of people over the time they were enacted.
    Large percent? Especially given that this is net income, I'd guess less than 1% of the population.

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    Re: CBS News Poll: Most Oppose GOP Tax Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    No, its not. The effective tax rates are the lowest in 60 years. I am not talking about tax revenues, I am talking about taxes paid as a percentage of income.

    Note the table of effective tax rates by income bracket since 1979.

    Historical Effective Federal Tax Rates for All Households

    Historical Tax Rates by Income Group [NYTimes]

    I will produce one that goes back to 1950.

    It is time for conservatives to stop whining and just pay their share of citizenship.
    Be sure to include payroll taxes in the calculations.

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    Re: CBS News Poll: Most Oppose GOP Tax Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Protectionist View Post
    No, 90% of the population has not "managed to find work.
    1. The 10% figure is the government figure which does not include "discouraged workers" who are no longer looking (in fact, quite likely most of the unemployed are in this category - that would put the rate at well above 20%.
    2. The rate is likely higher than that because 8 million illegal aliens are considered part of the employed sector, and, as foreign nationals, they shouldn't be positively be figured in as US employment.
    3. % get even higher when you consider legal aliens in the US on work permits (why are these still being granted ?)
    4. The % gets still higher when you consider foreign workers outside the US, but working for US companies - figured in as US employment. (NOT !)
    5. The scenario I described wasn't supposed to be me. It fits millions of unemployed Americans.
    6. Most of the 90% you mention (which is really about 60%), has not "managed to find work" because they have been on their jobs for longer than 1 year (the time frame used to tabulate unemployment statistics - like your 90%). So that leaves us with what ? 20% who have "managed to find work" ? I'd guess it's more like 10%.
    There are quite literally millions of jobs available. There are MANY millions of jobs being filled by unskilled illegal laborers. The problem is people are unskilled or unqualifed. People dont 'think' when they go to college...what do you REALLY think a liberal arts degree is going do for you? Do you REALLY believe the college of massage therapy is going to prepare you for a future? If ITT tech is graduating (guaranteed to graduate no less) thousands of new computer technicians do you REALLy think those jobs will be readily available? Oh...and following the latest trend...sorry...there simply arent THAT many 'CSI' jobs out there...and when a PD actually HAS a CSI department they dont typically hire sexxxy quirky females fresh out of college. If you get a degree in math, but have no desire to teach, and cant find a job AS a math, getting an ADVANCED degree in the same subject isnt likely to make you more marketable.

    Social services, med related (including the med science, equipment fields) are sure hire fields for people that are worth a damn. COmputing skills are a must. You better be skilled using Adobe, databases, spreadsheets, etc if you want a leg up on hiring. And you better know your state/region markets. If you have basic competencies jobs are still easily available. We cant FILL some positions.

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    Re: CBS News Poll: Most Oppose GOP Tax Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    There are quite literally millions of jobs available. There are MANY millions of jobs being filled by unskilled illegal laborers. The problem is people are unskilled or unqualifed. People dont 'think' when they go to college...what do you REALLY think a liberal arts degree is going do for you? Do you REALLY believe the college of massage therapy is going to prepare you for a future? If ITT tech is graduating (guaranteed to graduate no less) thousands of new computer technicians do you REALLy think those jobs will be readily available? Oh...and following the latest trend...sorry...there simply arent THAT many 'CSI' jobs out there...and when a PD actually HAS a CSI department they dont typically hire sexxxy quirky females fresh out of college. If you get a degree in math, but have no desire to teach, and cant find a job AS a math, getting an ADVANCED degree in the same subject isnt likely to make you more marketable.

    Social services, med related (including the med science, equipment fields) are sure hire fields for people that are worth a damn. COmputing skills are a must. You better be skilled using Adobe, databases, spreadsheets, etc if you want a leg up on hiring. And you better know your state/region markets. If you have basic competencies jobs are still easily available. We cant FILL some positions.
    This is a good and relevant post. I would add though, that there's a large (and unfortunately growing) segment of the workforce that is unemployable or difficult to get work, no matter what skills they have.

    One of these is older people. If blacks and women think they have it tough being discriminated against, just wait until you hit 62, and employers know you can get Social Security without working. It's like the old overqualified thing where they think you'll quit when a more suitable job shows up. For that matter, employers also think about how long you'll live. They want young people in their 20's and 30's who they hope will stay with the company for 30 or 40 years, like my father who worked for the local utility company for 47 years. Only job he ever had.

    Then there's all the people who don't have an immaculate work history. In a severe recession, employers weed these out, and then look at all the goody two shoes who have no unemployment gaps, don't have too many former employers, strong references from former employers (many employers don't give quality references), experience within the last 2 years (while disqualifying applicants with earlier experience even if it's extensive), medical problem or criminal history > forget it, etc. Many of these people could/would be good workers, but they don't get s shot to prove themselves. I'm sure others could add more to this list including employers, or former employers, which I am.

    It's a lot more complex than "just the get some training" concept.
    Last edited by Protectionist; 12-14-10 at 12:46 PM.

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