CBS News Poll: Most Oppose GOP Tax Plan

zimmer said:

Well, I've read a ton of Turtle's posts and think I can probably hit the nail squarely as to why. It has nothing about being "one of them", and it is simple to explain logical, and can be explained in two parts.

Are you seated?

1. It's merely a matter of what will provide the greatest good to the greatest number of the long term.

Socialism, with their Madoff Schemes have always failed and will always fail. Just look at the monumental financial mess we have on our hands. The result of socialism run amok.

The government is too detached, too slow, too corrupted, breeds dependence, and sucks out wads of cash from the hands of individuals... and then they don't even live up to the promises they make. They spend the money and want more, and more, and more!

Fail.org should have a picture of our Federal Government on page 1, as well as every other Eurosocialist welfare state.

2. Liberty.

Money/Possessions are the result of your labor; mental or physical. It can even be from luck... though rarely is so, but who cares... so long as it was legally gained?

And why is my Turtle's or anyone's wealth subject to limitation by the government through punitive, graduated taxation? Something right out of the Communist Manifesto. Equal is equal. We should all be taxed the same. Someone busting their ass and producing shouldn't be taxed higher than and subsidizing Joe 6-pack, or the local potheads.

Using the government to act as a conduit to walk into the house or bank account of individuals to steal wealth, only to run it through the government grinder and turn a dollar into 25cents isn't liberating to anyone. It breeds the worst in people. A mentality of looking to government, the thief, to solve your problems, to run your life, and the sickness called class warfare.

.

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Sorry Zimmer but with Turtle its all a matter of looking out for Number One, particularly the money of Number One. The rest of it - the ideology, the philosophy, the political underpinnings - its all just lipstick on a pig. An ideology of selfishness is nothing new - but if you look at the posts of Turtle it all comes down top a few basic things

1- I am rich and that makes me a superior individual
2- the Republicans will help protect my riches
3- the Democrats threaten my riches
4- the unwashed masses threaten my riches by voting Democratic
5- lets disenfranchise tens of millions of Dems so the Republicans can hold power forever and protect my riches

all the rest is just extra layers designed to make this pure selfishness look like it has some substance other than greed.

And it does not.

Kev316 ... sorry, but you lost me there.

haymarket said:

Really? I judge them by what they do. The rest is pretty much crap.

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On this board you have no idea what people do-just what their posts say.

Protectionist said:

So that's what's behind your leave-the-rich-alone stance. You're one of them.

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Duh, I have always been honest about the fact that I am a top 1 percent tax payer. But I am not someone who can influence markets, set my own rate of pay or returns etc. Its people like me who are hit the hardest by dem party tax schemes. ITs people like BUffett and Gates who want the dems in power. And none of you have ever answered honestly the obvious question--what do people like me get in additional benefits for paying more and more taxes? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. And taxing people like me more while allowing people like you to not pay anymore leads to people like you wanting more and more spending that others have to pay for

The Giant Noodle said:

Your 2 points contradict each other. Bottom line is Republicans dont want to help pull their weight. They DONT want to be a team player. And the majority of Republicans rarely work nearly as hard as others. Ive seen it. I lived it. Boil it down and Republicans are greedy children that dont want to play ball. They dont want to help others SOOOOOOOO the government will FORCE Republicans to help out the rest of the Nation. Sad but true. They arent team players.


And this comment:


Is 100% ignorant. So you think their money goes to pot heads??? And whats this Joe 6-pack ****? Sounds like youve got one twisted view of reality making those comments. PLUS you think low income people DONT bust their ass???? You really need to stop voting until you understand life and reality.

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A libertarian screaming about taxking people to be a team player and wanting to give the government more of OTHER peoples' wealth?

haymarket said:

Sorry Zimmer but with Turtle its all a matter of looking out for Number One, particularly the money of Number One. The rest of it - the ideology, the philosophy, the political underpinnings - its all just lipstick on a pig. An ideology of selfishness is nothing new - but if you look at the posts of Turtle it all comes down top a few basic things

1- I am rich and that makes me a superior individual
2- the Republicans will help protect my riches
3- the Democrats threaten my riches
4- the unwashed masses threaten my riches by voting Democratic
5- lets disenfranchise tens of millions of Dems so the Republicans can hold power forever and protect my riches

all the rest is just extra layers designed to make this pure selfishness look like it has some substance other than greed.

And it does not.

Kev316 ... sorry, but you lost me there.

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More lies-and envy, nothing more nothing less. its destructive to allow people like you to demand more and more government and never having to pay for it because the rich don't have enough wealth to fund all the idiotic government people like you clamor for

TurtleDude said:

More lies-and envy, nothing more nothing less. its destructive to allow people like you to demand more and more government and never having to pay for it because the rich don't have enough wealth to fund all the idiotic government people like you clamor for

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And how many times have you levied this same baseless allegation at either myself or others who advocate a progressive income tax policy only to be told

1- we do not envy you but are very happy with who we are
2- people like us already are paying for our government services thank you, and many of us are indeed successful and pay for more than what we get in return but we are accepting of that as a price we pay for a civilized and progressive society
3- the rich do have wealth that can be taxed in a far more progressive manner than the current rates

Of course, you will ignore this reply as you do with the many that have gone before it instead pretending to wallow in the self imposed delusion that we are all ragamuffin street urchins who dream each night about getting in to the Turtle McMansion and doing swan dives off the diamond encrusted high board into the Olympic sized swimming pool filled with $100 bills.

That feeds into you own self image and you do rather enjoy it.

haymarket said:

And how many times have you levied this same baseless allegation at either myself or others who advocate a progressive income tax policy only to be told

1- we do not envy you but are very happy with who we are
2- people like us already are paying for our government services thank you, and many of us are indeed successful and pay for more than what we get in return but we are accepting of that as a price we pay for a civilized and progressive society
3- the rich do have wealth that can be taxed in a far more progressive manner than the current rates

Of course, you will ignore this reply as you do with the many that have gone before it instead pretending to wallow in the self imposed delusion that we are all ragamuffin street urchins who dream each night about getting in to the Turtle McMansion and doing swan dives off the diamond encrusted high board into the Olympic sized swimming pool filled with $100 bills.

That feeds into you own self image and you do rather enjoy it.

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This board crawls with comments directed at the rich suggesting those in the top 2% got their wealth by oppressing the poor, exploiting others etc.

the only honest argument you and other wealth grabbers have is to claim that the government needs more and more money and the rich are the only ones that can be soaked. Instead we get idiotic justifications that are based on punitive motivations combined with outright lies such as claiming that the 1 percent that pays 40% of the income tax are actually using 40% or more of the government services paid for by the income tax

TurtleDude said:

This board crawls with comments directed at the rich suggesting those in the top 2% got their wealth by oppressing the poor, exploiting others etc.

the only honest argument you and other wealth grabbers have is to claim that the government needs more and more money and the rich are the only ones that can be soaked. Instead we get idiotic justifications that are based on punitive motivations combined with outright lies such as claiming that the 1 percent that pays 40% of the income tax are actually using 40% or more of the government services paid for by the income tax

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This board crawls with comments by the defenders of the rich suggesting that they should be immune from the progressive tax system instituted almost a century ago. Those who pretend they are in the upper 2%, their toadies, their sycophants and they just plain wannabes, are participating in a wealth grab of unprecedented proportions not seen since the evils of the Gilded Age.

And yet again, for a time beyond calculation or count, you continue in the self imposed delusion that paying taxes is akin to shopping at Costco where you fill your cart with only what you want to purchase and then settle up at the register. Apparently they missed that civics lesson at your prep school.

Well, at least we can agree that the board is crawling.

I prefer to run with things, myself.

haymarket said:

This board crawls with comments by the defenders of the rich suggesting that they should be immune from the progressive tax system instituted almost a century ago. Those who pretend they are in the upper 2%, their toadies, their sycophants and they just plain wannabes, are participating in a wealth grab of unprecedented proportions not seen since the evils of the Gilded Age.

And yet again, for a time beyond calculation or count, you continue in the self imposed delusion that paying taxes is akin to shopping at Costco where you fill your cart with only what you want to purchase and then settle up at the register. Apparently they missed that civics lesson at your prep school.

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trying to defend the abomination and power grab known as the progressive tax system based purely on time is akin to justifying slavery or discrimination based on the same reason. It was a power grab designed by dems to use quantity of voters to gain power over those who actually contribute the most. THe rest of your psychobabbling is nothing more than your OPINION on how the government should be run-my views are in line with those who made this country great-your opinion is in line with those who have tried to turn this nation into a eurosocialist welfare state

TurtleDude said:

trying to defend the abomination and power grab known as the progressive tax system based purely on time is akin to justifying slavery or discrimination based on the same reason. It was a power grab designed by dems to use quantity of voters to gain power over those who actually contribute the most. THe rest of your psychobabbling is nothing more than your OPINION on how the government should be run-my views are in line with those who made this country great-your opinion is in line with those who have tried to turn this nation into a eurosocialist welfare state

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Are you attempting to justify slavery and discrimination? Or is that just empty rhetoric which serves no actual purpose? I guess its option #2.

You have no actual knowledge of history or the actual record. There was bipartisan support for the Progressive Income Tax and members of both parties voted for it on every level. The fathers of the 16th Amendment were both Republicans - Senators Norris Brown of Nebraska and Nelson Aldrich of New York. You really need to learn your history before you go popping off about Democratic power grabs which have no basis in historical fact.

And my views are based on the reality of the situation accepting the progressive income tax and the expansion of the franchise as part of the law of the land. Those are as American as apple pie and motherhood and have been so for a long long time now.

haymarket said:

Are you attempting to justify slavery and discrimination? Or is that just empty rhetoric which serves no actual purpose? I guess its option #2.

You have no actual knowledge of history or the actual record. There was bipartisan support for the Progressive Income Tax and members of both parties voted for it on every level. The fathers of the 16th Amendment were both Republicans - Senators Norris Brown of Nebraska and Nelson Aldrich of New York. You really need to learn your history before you go popping off about Democratic power grabs which have no basis in historical fact.

And my views are based on the reality of the situation accepting the progressive income tax and the expansion of the franchise as part of the law of the land. Those are as American as apple pie and motherhood and have been so for a long long time now.

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Lets see-you were a high school teacher. I studied labor law, tax law have a masters in labor matters. I also studied the legislative history behind the income tax and when one senator noted that a sales tax would raise more revenue he was told that such a tax would not give congress near the control over the public that an income tax was. Its all about control and your paen to the fact the masses are used to the rich being forced to pay far more than they use is hardly a valid argument in favor of such a scheme. It is the reason why our government is bloated and our deficit is out of control.

BBL

rant away

TurtleDude said:

Lets see-you were a high school teacher. I studied labor law, tax law have a masters in labor matters. I also studied the legislative history behind the income tax and when one senator noted that a sales tax would raise more revenue he was told that such a tax would not give congress near the control over the public that an income tax was. Its all about control and your paen to the fact the masses are used to the rich being forced to pay far more than they use is hardly a valid argument in favor of such a scheme. It is the reason why our government is bloated and our deficit is out of control.

BBL

rant away

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You should have studied harder Dude. Or perhaps it was the materials you were studying. When you spout off about your paranoid theory that the progressive income tax is a Democratic power grab it ignores the actual history of it and I don't give a flying fig what or where you pretend to have studied anything if you ignore that the fathers of the 16th Amendment WERE TWO REPUBLICANS and Republicans voted for it all over this nation in state legislature after state legislature.

Of course, such historical reality plays havoc with your paranoid delusions about the Democratic party and the income tax so you dismiss it and fall back on your infamous Ivy League book learning. Excuse us please if we do not swoon or surrender on the spot.

Once again, you must stick out your chest and proclaim your superiority over those who take a different position than yours. Normally its your vast wealth and economic resources worthy of a Rockefeller that place you on your own imagined pedestal. This time its your vaunted legal education and voluminous research. Gimme a break.

zimmer said:

Well, I've read a ton of Turtle's posts and think I can probably hit the nail squarely as to why. It has nothing about being "one of them", and it is simple to explain logical, and can be explained in two parts.

Are you seated?

1. It's merely a matter of what will provide the greatest good to the greatest number of the long term.

Socialism, with their Madoff Schemes have always failed and will always fail. Just look at the monumental financial mess we have on our hands. The result of socialism run amok.

The government is too detached, too slow, too corrupted, breeds dependence, and sucks out wads of cash from the hands of individuals... and then they don't even live up to the promises they make. They spend the money and want more, and more, and more!

Fail.org should have a picture of our Federal Government on page 1, as well as every other Eurosocialist welfare state.

2. Liberty.

Money/Possessions are the result of your labor; mental or physical. It can even be from luck... though rarely is so, but who cares... so long as it was legally gained?

And why is my Turtle's or anyone's wealth subject to limitation by the government through punitive, graduated taxation? Something right out of the Communist Manifesto. Equal is equal. We should all be taxed the same. Someone busting their ass and producing shouldn't be taxed higher than and subsidizing Joe 6-pack, or the local potheads.

Using the government to act as a conduit to walk into the house or bank account of individuals to steal wealth, only to run it through the government grinder and turn a dollar into 25cents isn't liberating to anyone. It breeds the worst in people. A mentality of looking to government, the thief, to solve your problems, to run your life, and the sickness called class warfare.

.

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Class warfare is just as much the rich against the poor (and middle class), as it is them against the rich. This whole statement you just made is class warfare against the poor & middle class.
As Karl Marx once said "All of history is the history of a class struggle". And it continues today every day, every hour. Actually I think it is more the rich making war on the poor, than the other way around, and your statement here now, and those of TurtleDude are part of that.

Yes, it has everything to do with being one of them. It is greed, pure and simple. The use of government whom you pretend to loathe, but you all don't hesitate to funnel millions of $$$ into the campaign coffers of the government officials of your choice, while fighting against campaign finance reform, so you can keep your legal bribery system intact.

The trouble with this statement > "Someone busting their ass and producing shouldn't be taxed higher than and subsidizing Joe 6-pack..", is that it is the Joe 6-packs of society who are the ones who are doing the producing and busting their asses. They're the ones who actually do the work to make the money for Jim-mansion. The Joe 6-packs drive the trucks (sometimes on dangerous icy roads), unload the crates, do receiving inspection, sit on boring and often, too speedy assembly lines, and then drive the stuff to the stores. They are security guards, badly underpaid, who work long, boring 12 hour shifts at night. They are coal miners who risk their lives (and sometimes lose them, as do cops and firemen). They are construction workers who often get hurt, and sometimes killed. These are the ones who are "busting their ass", as you put it, not the business owner who go out on the golf course and gets on his cell phone once a week and calls the plant manager to ask how everything's going.

I have been both an employee for many years, and an employer (owned my own business for 10 years). As an employer, I often felt guilty about having so much freedom, and making so much money, while so many people were really busting their asses, and getting paid peanuts, relatively speaking.

Your comment is kind of like saying water isn't wet, and trees aren't tall. Yeah, I know it's your culture to keep shoveling all that spin out at us, and Hannity and Beck are out there to keep it going, but I wonder if you have any idea how ridiculous you look and sound. BTW, I'm not a Democrat, and I do support the Republicans on quite a few issues (ex. immigration, Islamization, affirmative action, gun rights, political INcorrectness, etc., and I'm a registered Independent who sees things for what they are, not what will make my wallet a little fatter.

TurtleDude said:

This board crawls with comments directed at the rich suggesting those in the top 2% got their wealth by oppressing the poor, exploiting others etc.

the only honest argument you and other wealth grabbers have is to claim that the government needs more and more money and the rich are the only ones that can be soaked. Instead we get idiotic justifications that are based on punitive motivations combined with outright lies such as claiming that the 1 percent that pays 40% of the income tax are actually using 40% or more of the government services paid for by the income tax

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You richies are the "wealth grabbers" - that's how you got your wealth. By grabbing it from the people (employees) who worked for it, and actually earned it. You grab it by using the law (set up to benefit you), combined with manipulation of money and people.

Protectionist said:

You richies are the "wealth grabbers" - that's how you got your wealth. By grabbing it from the people (employees) who worked for it, and actually earned it. You grab it by using the law (set up to benefit you), combined with manipulation of money and people.

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QED: try working harder and spending less time ranting about what others have done. Your zero sum game nonsense justifies your failures to you but not to me. My doing well doesn't take from you the ability to also do well. You act as if life is like a classroom where the teacher only will give 10% A grades and every kid who busts his butt to make honors is somehow stealing a phi beta kappa key from you.

haymarket said:

You should have studied harder Dude. Or perhaps it was the materials you were studying. When you spout off about your paranoid theory that the progressive income tax is a Democratic power grab it ignores the actual history of it and I don't give a flying fig what or where you pretend to have studied anything if you ignore that the fathers of the 16th Amendment WERE TWO REPUBLICANS and Republicans voted for it all over this nation in state legislature after state legislature.

Of course, such historical reality plays havoc with your paranoid delusions about the Democratic party and the income tax so you dismiss it and fall back on your infamous Ivy League book learning. Excuse us please if we do not swoon or surrender on the spot.

Once again, you must stick out your chest and proclaim your superiority over those who take a different position than yours. Normally its your vast wealth and economic resources worthy of a Rockefeller that place you on your own imagined pedestal. This time its your vaunted legal education and voluminous research. Gimme a break.

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You seem to have some self esteem issues. I have never claimed to be a "better person" because I am most likely wealthier than you are. Of course it is easier for you to attack such a strawman than actually defend your position that the top 2% have an unlimited duty to pay as much in taxes as the voters demand.

TurtleDude said:

You seem to have some self esteem issues. I have never claimed to be a "better person" because I am most likely wealthier than you are. Of course it is easier for you to attack such a strawman than actually defend your position that the top 2% have an unlimited duty to pay as much in taxes as the voters demand.

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I guess its just me then....... and the others who have told you the same damn thing. Lots of folks have told you this but you are blind to it.

We happen to live in a nation which is a democratic republic. Anytime you feel the great unwashed threaten your caviar stash with their vote and their demands on your money you know that there are no walls keeping you here and other nations may welcome you.

haymarket said:

I guess its just me then....... and the others who have told you the same damn thing. Lots of folks have told you this but you are blind to it.

We happen to live in a nation which is a democratic republic. Anytime you feel the great unwashed threaten your caviar stash with their vote and their demands on your money you know that there are no walls keeping you here and other nations may welcome you.

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Actually, living in a democratic republic means you get to state your opinion, and even try to sway others to effect change that you'd like to see. Telling people to leave for trying to do so is . . . not very much in keeping with that idea.

Harshaw said:

Actually, living in a democratic republic means you get to state your opinion, and even try to sway others to effect change that you'd like to see. Telling people to leave for trying to do so is . . . not very much in keeping with that idea.

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Telling people all their options is very much a public service. America was built upon people leaving and trying to find someplace better that suited their views. Telling somebody they can leave is as American as apple pie being consumed by a mother on the Fourth of July wearing a red, white and blue dress.

haymarket said:

Telling people all their options is very much a public service. America was built upon people leaving and trying to find someplace better that suited their views. Telling somebody they can leave is as American as apple pie being consumed by a mother on the Fourth of July wearing a red, white and blue dress.

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Or, as in your case, you're simply saying "if you don't like it, leave." Which is childish and smarmy. Yet, it's a frequent response of yours.

("Public service." :lamo :lamo :lamo)

Harshaw said:

Or, as in your case, you're simply saying "if you don't like it, leave." Which is childish and smarmy. Yet, it's a frequent response of yours.

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You can characterize it any way you want to gain comfort in your own skin. I could not care less.

In point of historical fact, America was created by people who hit the road looking for another way. Libertarians are always telling us of the glories of the free market and choice but they have failed to exercise it making the biggest choice of all like our founders did. Reminding all of that choice is something we need to do more of today... a whole lot more of.

In the Canadian town of Niagara-on-the-Lake in Ontario, they have a small monument in the town square honoring the American tories who fled New York and other places when it became apparent the revolution was successful. Thousands of them hit the road because they did not like the coming changes and wanted to live where their money and privilege would be respected as they were used to. Its an American tradition and we would do well to remember it.

Harshaw said:

Or, as in your case, you're simply saying "if you don't like it, leave." Which is childish and smarmy. Yet, it's a frequent response of yours.

("Public service." :lamo :lamo :lamo)

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Perhaps a nicer way of putting it is, "where you gonna go to have it better"?

Its a good thing that the people who created this nation were not so fixated and risk adverse.

But Utah, that is a good thing for the complainers and malcontents to think about. Perhaps if they thought a bit more about the alternative, they just might shut up a bit and accept that this is no longer the 18th century, we are no longer a nation of 4 million farmers, and we no longer need just the town mayor and sheriff as government.

Or not. Probably not.

UtahBill said:

Perhaps a nicer way of putting it is, "where you gonna go to have it better"?

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Hardly the point. Anyone is welcome to try to change things as they feel appropriate. Here, I thought "love it or leave it" was a scandalous thing said to noble peace marchers in the '60s.