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Airport Security: Let's Profile Muslims

In the quoted article, the writer mentions "religious and racial profiling" in one breath. I would offer that the two are very distinct, since people do not choose their race, but they do choose their religion -- even, as in the case of Islam, such a choice is coerced, and/or such an integral aspect of the indoctrinated culture that it doesn't seem like a choice. Since religion is a choice and race isn't, then profiling according to religion is based upon ideology rather than something fixed and innate. As such, profiling according to religion is little different than profiling according to any other ideology, religious or not.
 
Yeah you're right. Government has never expanded once in history. Never has it acted out against it's own people. It's never acted improperly, never siezed power it wasn't supposed to have. No, government has always been a benevolent force, right? Like a nice, warm puppy. There's no evidence of any government doing anything wrong ever, particularly ours. What warrantless searches? You're being silly. What aggressive search techniques by TSA? They're keeping us safe, right? Patriot Act, Real ID Act....what, no now you're just being silly. Yup. Nothing to see here, move along.

Tell you what Catz, when you want to have an actual conversation then come back. Till that point, idiotic dismiss statements are not going to advance anything.

When your arguments here consist of nothing but paranoid frothing about gummint power grabs and slippery slope fallacies, it's difficult to take your points seriously.
 
When your arguments here consist of nothing but paranoid frothing about gummint power grabs and slippery slope fallacies, it's difficult to take your points seriously.

Not really, there's no frothing or paranoia; only measured reality. My points are backed up by history and even recent legislation. It shows the power grabs quite clearly for anyone who wishes to see them. All government tends towards tyranny, it is the base nature of government. The reason why, while government being a necessity, it must be controlled and restricted. A concept well understood by the founders. The dismissive attitude based in fear, however, is an irrational one which poses great danger in general to the rights and liberties of the individual.

Instead of looking at the situation rationally, examining the probabilities and understanding what the statistics say, some choose emotionalized response and irrational argument. In such, it clears way for massive usurpation of power. Fear is a powerful tool and we should be wary of the way in which government wields it. How much "safety" do we get out of TSA? Do you even know? What have they caught? Besides countless cans of shaving cream. Really and truly, what functionally and significantly have we derived from all the money we've poured into the TSA? Could we have done so with less money? Less intrusive and aggressive actions against the People?

In the end, there are those who want to deflect away from such criticism. Others who will try to label critique of the TSA or government at large as some form of "conspiracy theory". As if warning against government power is a conspiracy. The deflections are intellectually dishonest at best, devoid in general. The terrorists aren't going to get you, the TSA isn't helping you. The only thing it is doing is being a hindrance, being aggressive against our rights, and expanding government force against the People. And that my friend is a measured fact. Accept it or hide from it, it's up to you.
 
Yeah, you would think they were tasked to make us "safer". But how much "safer" are we? TSA didn't catch the underwear nor shoe bomber. They couldn't light themselves on fire in the end. And the new methods, these aggressive groping and naked images that we're doing now wouldn't have caught it. Nor will it make us "safer". Terrorism was already low probability, and there is no real way to significantly make us "safer" as the added risk posed by terrorists to the over all probability that we will die on any 1 given flight is minuscule. So what have they really done for us? Not much, nor will they be able to have that significant of an impact. While there can be arguments made for not outright dismissing the TSA, there is significant argument to be made that it should be run more effectively, intelligently, and less aggressively against its own people particularly when we consider the overall probabilities that we're talking about.

Exactly. Terrorism is, was, and always will be, a very unlikely event. It doesn't happen very often, but it's very high-profile when it does. I'm pretty sure that the average person has a greater chance of being randomly struck by lightning than to be killed in a terrorist attack. The great lengths we go to, where we sacrifice time, money, privacy, dignity, our pretext of religious and racial equality, and our constitutional freedoms... have all served to perhaps make an incredibly rare event slightly rarer. The cost we have paid is HUGE compared to the negligible return.
 
Have you worked with law enforcement and people who do interview/interrogation and profiling? It requires a high level of experience, for one thing, before people get good at it. You're talking about recruiting experienced investigators, for the most part, and you're going to have to pay those people considerably more than the average TSA employee earns.
I'm okay with that.

So, are you prepared to hire several hundred or thousand people and pay them 80-90k a year? because, frankly, that's what you're looking at. Most skilled investigators earn upwards of $50k a year, and in large cities, they earn significantly more than that.
Absolutely.

1,000 workers at 80k per year and that's 8 million. What do we have now?
Magnetic Imaging machines (19 deployed)
200,000 each

X-Ray (backscatter) machines (soon to be deployed, let's use 10 for a calculation)
190,000 each

Baggage Check x-ray machines (thousands deployed)
45,000 each

Puffer Machines (18 currently deployed)
160,000 each

Manetometers (metal detector machines)
15,000 each

Swabbing hand held detectors - too many to count

Enchanced Pat-downs (added TSA agents and training needed)

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2009/12/29/magnetometers-x-rays-airport-security-technology/

All that is around 65-68 million. We have a lot of machines that do a lot of scanning but what we lack in our arsenal are a few trained, experienced people who can be called in to ask a few questions to see if more questions are required. Profile? Absolutely. Everyone goes through the scanners, has their bags x-rayed, gets the puff of air and a few set off the machines and need a pat down. But the machines don't detect nervousness, and they're not programmed to identify answers to questions that don't make sense. How about we try it with 100 people first, a few at some of the big airports and see if it's worth keeping?
 
You mean something like this:

Behavior Detection Officers

Only asking questions not simply just observing?

Cause we have those. Now granted, they can't Profile because the Supreme Court has found that broadscale profiling is unconstitutional and we all know you were so worried earlier on about trampling upon rights.
 
You mean something like this:

Behavior Detection Officers

Only asking questions not simply just observing?

Cause we have those. Now granted, they can't Profile because the Supreme Court has found that broadscale profiling is unconstitutional and we all know you were so worried earlier on about trampling upon rights.

I'd be in favor of challenging the profiling and the "unconstitutionality", and no not really like BDO's. I'm saying the TSA should hire Isaac Yeffet, model the interviews directly from El Al, train about 100 people in Israel (OJT) then pilot a program in 10 major airline hubs for 18 months with a report on the findings. Yes I'm concerned on the over reach and invasion of privacy, that still holds, or are you claiming some mutual exclusivity that interviews must automatically trample rights? And let's be clear - I'm concerned about Constitutional rights you know, as they are outlined in the actual Constitution.
 
And let's be clear - I'm concerned about Constitutional rights you know, as they are outlined in the actual Constitution.

You're including the bill of rights in the "actual constitution," right?
 
I'd be in favor of challenging the profiling and the "unconstitutionality", and no not really like BDO's.

So essentially, something that's been clearly defined as unconstitutional you're fine with implimenting anyways HOPING that the Supreme Court will find it different. However, things that have NOT been found as unconstitutional you act as if they're unquestionably unconstitutional and trampling upon our rights?

That makes a ton of sense.

Yes I'm concerned on the over reach and invasion of privacy, that still holds, or are you claiming some mutual exclusivity that interviews must automatically trample rights?

No, I'm saying that profilining "Muslims" (which I've still yet to have anyone explain how you accurately do that) or "Arabic" people is unconstitutional, so trying to argue that we must forgo our current methods because YOU feel its unconstitutional to institute something that utilizes a tactic that has been ruled unconstitutional isn't a strong argument to me.

And let's be clear - I'm concerned about Constitutional rights you know, as they are outlined in the actual Constitution.

And per the court that is vested with the power to judge the constitutionality of things, profiling...which is what you want to impliment...is unconstitutional on a broadscale level.

"I care about the constitution, except where its inconvienent to me"
 
So essentially, something that's been clearly defined as unconstitutional you're fine with implimenting anyways HOPING that the Supreme Court will find it different. However, things that have NOT been found as unconstitutional you act as if they're unquestionably unconstitutional and trampling upon our rights?
No that's not what I said. I said I'd be in favor of challenging the unconstitutionality of profiling as was defined in Adarand Constructors v. Pena, in which O'Connor identified,

"Accordingly, we hold today that all racial classifications, imposed by whatever federal, state, or local governmental actor, must be analyzed by a reviewing court under strict scrutiny. In other words, such classifications are constitutional only if they are narrowly tailored measures that further compelling governmental interests."

Three criteria must be met:
1. Ethnicity must play a major role in finding the guilty - in this case, profiling ethnicity of the ME or religion thereof.
2. There must be reasonable suspicion to believe that a meaningful portion of the profiled ethnic class is guilty.
3. the benefit of including ethnicity must exceed its cost, e.g., evidence must outweigh conjecture.

On those grounds, a challenge to the unconstitutionality of profiling may clarify the issue. I'm not fine with implementing anything with HOPE, so stop injecting your analysis and conjecture - simply read it as a legal challenge meant to clarify what is and is not covered under the 5th and 14th amendments as it applies to air travel and who is and is not questioned.

That makes a ton of sense.

Yes it does doesn't it.



No, I'm saying that profilining "Muslims" (which I've still yet to have anyone explain how you accurately do that) or "Arabic" people is unconstitutional, so trying to argue that we must forgo our current methods because YOU feel its unconstitutional to institute something that utilizes a tactic that has been ruled unconstitutional isn't a strong argument to me.
First your sentence doesn't even make sense "...because you feel its unconstitution to institute something that utilizes a tactic that has been ruled unconstitutional..." Cut down on the prepositions and make your point, what that point may be. I think I've already identified a pilot program utilizing El Al's methods may be beneficial. You're complaint earlier about logistics and cost you've obviously abandoned, so now your relying on "settled law" with regards to Constitutionality and lay claim that El Al profiles so their interviewing will not work in the U.S. Fine - then interview WITHOUT profiling if that makes you happy. It still doesn't change the fact that my OPINION is the profiling cases and constitutionality of profiling given the 3 criteria above could use clarification.

And per the court that is vested with the power to judge the constitutionality of things, profiling...which is what you want to impliment...is unconstitutional on a broadscale level.
Nice appeal to authority, however, the court that has the power to judge constitutionality has been overturned or else we'd still have slavery (Dred Scott vs. Sanford), or we'd still have racial segregation, (Brown vs. The Board of Ed. Topeka). So sorry you're offended that I'm daring to question the authority or decision of the SCOTUS, as you know the makeup of the SCOTUS politically has ramifications on their decision making process as well as their interpretation of the Constitution.

"I care about the constitution, except where its inconvienent to me"
I care about the Constitution, not so much about case law and I dare to question the decision of the Supreme Court. I know... what audacity huh? You'd rather everyone bend over because the SCOTUS says so and we abandoned the right to disagree. My my... how authoritarian of you.
 
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No that's not what I said. I said I'd be in favor of challenging the unconstitutionality of profiling as was defined in Adarand Constructors v. Pena, in which O'Connor identified,

You're in favor of challenging it by out and out ignoring it and instituting policy that runs counter to it in hopes that said policy...which would already be under way...is challenged in court and HOPEFULLY wins out.

First your sentence doesn't even make sense "...because you feel its unconstitution to institute something that utilizes a tactic that has been ruled unconstitutional..." Cut down on the prepositions and make your point, what that point may be.

You feel the current searches are "trampling our rights" based on your OPINION, so your answer is to institute something that the SCOTUS has already ruled DOES trample on peoples rights. To me, that's not makes your supposed concerns about our "rights" seem pretty transparent and hollow.

I think I've already identified a pilot program utilizing El Al's methods may be beneficial. You're complaint earlier about logistics and cost you've obviously abandoned, so now your relying on "settled law" with regards to Constitutionality and lay claim that El Al profiles so their interviewing will not work in the U.S.

And I acknowledge I'd be fine with your pilot program, except for the profiling, since the Supreme Court has deemed it unconstitutional. If you want to challenge it somehow and, if the challenge is won, THEN impliment it...be my guest! However I don't think profiling will be that affective enough to potentially willingly and knowingly violate the constitution in the HOPE that when its challenged the current status quo will be overturned.

I've not focused on my "logistics" comment right now because you're not suggesting a nation wide role out focusing solely on an "El Al" style of system. You're suggesting a single airport, small scale test, that melds that as an additioanl layer on top of what we have. I've got no issue with that, save for the profiling.

Fine - then interview WITHOUT profiling if that makes you happy. It still doesn't change the fact that my OPINION is the profiling cases and constitutionality of profiling given the 3 criteria above could use clarification.

Wonderful. Glad you have an opinion. And that's fine you have conviction enough that you'd wantonly violate constitutional law with your polices in HOPE that said constitutioanl rulings would be overturned. I don't think profiling would be anywhere near effective enough to warrant such a thing for me to be able to support it. However, as I said previously, I'd have no problem seeing a pilot program of what you suggested sans the profiling.

Nice appeal to authority, however, the court that has the power to judge constitutionality has been overturned or else we'd still have slavery (Dred Scott vs. Sanford), or we'd still have racial segregation, (Brown vs. The Board of Ed. Topeka).

However, significant difference here.

Dred Scott and Brown both had the courts claiming one thing as constitutional, the law FOLLOWED that constitutional law, and then later when people challenged it again it was over turned.

What YOU'RE suggesting is that the courts have claimed one thing as UNconstitutional, you want the law/policies to violate said constitutional law by implimenting it and then challenging it, and then hope after the fact its reversed.

Or am I misunderstanding you and you would like to bring a legal challenge against the notion of profiling FIRST, and then IF its overturned impliment your plan to profile?

So sorry you're offended that I'm daring to question the authority or decision of the SCOTUS, as you know the makeup of the SCOTUS politically has ramifications on their decision making process as well as their interpretation of the Constitution.

Yes, godforbid me wanting things to be done constitutionally with regards to the constitution. Silly silly me. I mean, it's like I think the Constitution established the Supreme Court or something. Jeesh!
 
You're in favor of challenging it by out and out ignoring it and instituting policy that runs counter to it in hopes that said policy...which would already be under way...is challenged in court and HOPEFULLY wins out.
I think I made it abundantly clear I'm in favor of challenging the ruling, not by implementation but through the court. You're point is irrelevant as it's not remotely accurate or reflective of what I've already said.

You feel the current searches are "trampling our rights" based on your OPINION, so your answer is to institute something that the SCOTUS has already ruled DOES trample on peoples rights. To me, that's not makes your supposed concerns about our "rights" seem pretty transparent and hollow.
See above... already addressed. This is not about instituting anything that's unconstitional. Refer to "implement it without profiling".

And I acknowledge I'd be fine with your pilot program, except for the profiling, since the Supreme Court has deemed it unconstitutional. If you want to challenge it somehow and, if the challenge is won, THEN impliment it...be my guest!
Agreed. Implement it without profiling while in parallel challenge the ruling in the court.

I've not focused on my "logistics" comment right now because you're not suggesting a nation wide role out focusing solely on an "El Al" style of system. You're suggesting a single airport, small scale test, that melds that as an additioanl layer on top of what we have. I've got no issue with that, save for the profiling.
It would have to be tested first which would be the only reasonable method. Because it works in one country doesn't mean it will work in another with a different culture and society.

Dred Scott and Brown both had the courts claiming one thing as constitutional, the law FOLLOWED that constitutional law, and then later when people challenged it again it was over turned.

What YOU'RE suggesting is that the courts have claimed one thing as UNconstitutional, you want the law/policies to violate said constitutional law by implimenting it and then challenging it, and then hope after the fact its reversed.
No I don't necessary want the law/policies to violate the standing constitutionality of profiling though, that still could be used as an excuse to challenge the standing law. There are multiple ways to get an issue to the SCOTUS. By having a State for example, institute a policy that clearly violates the standing ruling of the SCOTUS, it would allow supporting briefs to be added at the circuit and district levels through the appeal process. Another way would be to file amicus and challenge it outright.

Or am I misunderstanding you and you would like to bring a legal challenge against the notion of profiling FIRST, and then IF its overturned impliment your plan to profile?
In my previous posts it was the latter, though I could see the former being used as a challenge tactic as well, though the former would be much narrower in scope and probably less effective.

Yes, godforbid me wanting things to be done constitutionally with regards to the constitution. Silly silly me. I mean, it's like I think the Constitution established the Supreme Court or something. Jeesh!
Question everything!! :mrgreen:
 
While I believe profiling will help identify Islamic terrorist, we have to be careful with this. Not every suspected terrorist looks like a Middle-Easterner. So, behavioral analysis may be an added requirement. Still, you'd have to know suspecious behavior in order to know who's not acting normal among the hundreds of passengers who gather at airport terminals daily.

So, while I understand the logic behind racial profiling be it to catch illegal aliens, gangbangers, drug trafficers or Islamic terrorist (because each do tend to fit a specific gender and/or racial characteristic), we still should be careful not to spread a wide net over everyone whom we think best fits the description of a Middle-Eastern male who might be an Islamist.

It's also true, however, that Muslim communities across this nation do need to start taking a more proactive stand against acts of terrorism in this country. Unless they start speaking out and denouncing terrorist acts in greater numbers, they make it difficult to root out the bad apples amongst their people. Whites in America went through this same thing during the Civil Rights era. Until more Whites start taking a stand (mainly young white college students and white women), White America merely gave lip service to the dispicable acts of racial violence and injustice committed against Blacks. Same thing needs to happen within Muslim communities; they need to have a racial/religious uprising of their own condeming terrorism - PERIOD!
 
While I believe profiling will help identify Islamic terrorist, we have to be careful with this. Not every suspected terrorist looks like a Middle-Easterner. So, behavioral analysis may be an added requirement. Still, you'd have to know suspecious behavior in order to know who's not acting normal among the hundreds of passengers who gather at airport terminals daily.

So, while I understand the logic behind racial profiling be it to catch illegal aliens, gangbangers, drug trafficers or Islamic terrorist (because each do tend to fit a specific gender and/or racial characteristic), we still should be careful not to spread a wide net over everyone whom we think best fits the description of a Middle-Eastern male who might be an Islamist.

It's also true, however, that Muslim communities across this nation do need to start taking a more proactive stand against acts of terrorism in this country. Unless they start speaking out and denouncing terrorist acts in greater numbers, they make it difficult to root out the bad apples amongst their people. Whites in America went through this same thing during the Civil Rights era. Until more Whites start taking a stand (mainly young white college students and white women), White America merely gave lip service to the dispicable acts of racial violence and injustice committed against Blacks. Same thing needs to happen within Muslim communities; they need to have a racial/religious uprising of their own condeming terrorism - PERIOD!

Very well worded post. Thank you very much. :mrgreen:
 
American Muslims cannot be profiled. They are members of Allah's Ummah. They are entitled to special rights because they are Allah's chosen people. We must learn to bow down to American Muslims.

There is no need for American Muslims to show even the slightest degree of solidarity with non-Muslim Americans because infidels are nothing, and only Muslims are human beings. Allahu Akbar. Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawd is Gr8.
 
American Muslims cannot be profiled. They are members of Allah's Ummah. They are entitled to special rights because they are Allah's chosen people. We must learn to bow down to American Muslims.

There is no need for American Muslims to show even the slightest degree of solidarity with non-Muslim Americans because infidels are nothing, and only Muslims are human beings. Allahu Akbar. Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawd is Gr8.

Wow. Thanks for this incredibly logical persuasive, and insightful post. Great contribution to the thread here.
 
It's also true, however, that Muslim communities across this nation do need to start taking a more proactive stand against acts of terrorism in this country. Unless they start speaking out and denouncing terrorist acts in greater numbers, they make it difficult to root out the bad apples amongst their people.

Muslim communities are under no obligation (nor should they be encouraged) to speak out against actions that have zero to do with them. Islam is no military that has a problem with rogue service members who operate outside the realm of legal combat. Also, white people "speaking out" didn't create a change of tide during the civil rights era... laws did, especially one enacted in 1964 that I probably don't need to go into detail describing. The concept of seeing one and thinking "all" is a failure of the observing party, not the group... and an example of such a failure would be those who see "mosque" and think "terrorism".

By claiming that "none of my family members ever committed a terrorist act" isn't a solid enough position in denouncing terrorism, then "no one in my family ever owned a slave" can be thrown right into the same pile of garbage reasoning... no?

Likeness in skin color or religion aren't legitimate grounds for speaking out against psychopaths.
 
If the police notice a white male driving around a predominantly black neighborhood where crack cocaine is sold on the street corners, should they pull him over and ask him what his business is in the neighborhood or should they pull over and search every car in the neighborhood?
 
If the police notice a white male driving around a predominantly black neighborhood where crack cocaine is sold on the street corners, should they pull him over and ask him what his business is in the neighborhood or should they pull over and search every car in the neighborhood?

they probably would wait for him to attempt a buy, then arrest him.
 
Quick question...

How do you know someone is a Muslim at the airport security gate? Do they dress like a Muslim? well then the Muslim-terrorist just won't look like one. Do they talk with an Arabic accent? Well not all Muslims are Arab and one can be taught an American or other accent in phrases needed to get through an airport. Do we ask everyone in the US what their religion, because of domestic terrorists, as well as those entering the US? They can lie...

How do we do it?
Step One would be to look at the passport.
 
they probably would wait for him to attempt a buy, then arrest him.

If they wait for him to attempt a buy, they have committed predictive profiling. Do you have a problem with predictive profiling?
 
Step One would be to look at the passport.

Maybe it has just been a really long time since I looked at mine, but I don't remember one's religion being on it.
 
Maybe it has just been a really long time since I looked at mine, but I don't remember one's religion being on it.
Passports identify the home country.
 
Religion/race wouldn’t be on passport but it shouldn’t be taboo for TSA to use religion/race/nationality as a factor in considering whether someone’s story adds up.
 
You realize TSA already DOES train individuals to do this type of thing? They're not hugely wide spread and tend to be at the big airports because its expensive training to get someone actually skilled at it. The people routinely and rather ignorantly comparing things to Israel need to realize we're gigantic compared to them.

We have 303,289,200 more people in our country. That's almost 42 times more than Israel. We have 14,000 registered airports in our country as compared to 31. That's more than 400 airports for every one they have. We have almost as many Category X airports, the largest designation, as they have airports in general. In three weeks of time half the population of Israel will have passed through Chicago O'Hare International Airport alone.

The feasability, both in logistics and in cost, to roll out an Israel type of airport security would be mind boggling. The training involved, the higher pay for every employee that would be required, the higher quality employee that it would need, in and of itself presents huge issues in those two realms.

Certainly there are more airports in the United States than there are in Israel but there are more people also, and they can be trained. As you say, it does cost money to train them but there would probably also be fewer, and more effective, staff as a result. Things would move along far more swiftly.

You admit that these employees doing the groping are poorly trained, unqualified and poorly paid. They hardly seem to be worth the while that the American and international public must suffer whenever they pass through an airport. It's well past time to be more effective in running airport security rather than worrying about possibly offending any particular group.
 
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