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Thread: Airport Security: Let's Profile Muslims

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    Re: Airport Security: Let's Profile Muslims

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    No that's not what I said. I said I'd be in favor of challenging the unconstitutionality of profiling as was defined in Adarand Constructors v. Pena, in which O'Connor identified,
    You're in favor of challenging it by out and out ignoring it and instituting policy that runs counter to it in hopes that said policy...which would already be under way...is challenged in court and HOPEFULLY wins out.

    First your sentence doesn't even make sense "...because you feel its unconstitution to institute something that utilizes a tactic that has been ruled unconstitutional..." Cut down on the prepositions and make your point, what that point may be.
    You feel the current searches are "trampling our rights" based on your OPINION, so your answer is to institute something that the SCOTUS has already ruled DOES trample on peoples rights. To me, that's not makes your supposed concerns about our "rights" seem pretty transparent and hollow.

    I think I've already identified a pilot program utilizing El Al's methods may be beneficial. You're complaint earlier about logistics and cost you've obviously abandoned, so now your relying on "settled law" with regards to Constitutionality and lay claim that El Al profiles so their interviewing will not work in the U.S.
    And I acknowledge I'd be fine with your pilot program, except for the profiling, since the Supreme Court has deemed it unconstitutional. If you want to challenge it somehow and, if the challenge is won, THEN impliment it...be my guest! However I don't think profiling will be that affective enough to potentially willingly and knowingly violate the constitution in the HOPE that when its challenged the current status quo will be overturned.

    I've not focused on my "logistics" comment right now because you're not suggesting a nation wide role out focusing solely on an "El Al" style of system. You're suggesting a single airport, small scale test, that melds that as an additioanl layer on top of what we have. I've got no issue with that, save for the profiling.

    Fine - then interview WITHOUT profiling if that makes you happy. It still doesn't change the fact that my OPINION is the profiling cases and constitutionality of profiling given the 3 criteria above could use clarification.
    Wonderful. Glad you have an opinion. And that's fine you have conviction enough that you'd wantonly violate constitutional law with your polices in HOPE that said constitutioanl rulings would be overturned. I don't think profiling would be anywhere near effective enough to warrant such a thing for me to be able to support it. However, as I said previously, I'd have no problem seeing a pilot program of what you suggested sans the profiling.

    Nice appeal to authority, however, the court that has the power to judge constitutionality has been overturned or else we'd still have slavery (Dred Scott vs. Sanford), or we'd still have racial segregation, (Brown vs. The Board of Ed. Topeka).
    However, significant difference here.

    Dred Scott and Brown both had the courts claiming one thing as constitutional, the law FOLLOWED that constitutional law, and then later when people challenged it again it was over turned.

    What YOU'RE suggesting is that the courts have claimed one thing as UNconstitutional, you want the law/policies to violate said constitutional law by implimenting it and then challenging it, and then hope after the fact its reversed.

    Or am I misunderstanding you and you would like to bring a legal challenge against the notion of profiling FIRST, and then IF its overturned impliment your plan to profile?

    So sorry you're offended that I'm daring to question the authority or decision of the SCOTUS, as you know the makeup of the SCOTUS politically has ramifications on their decision making process as well as their interpretation of the Constitution.
    Yes, godforbid me wanting things to be done constitutionally with regards to the constitution. Silly silly me. I mean, it's like I think the Constitution established the Supreme Court or something. Jeesh!

  2. #62
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    Re: Airport Security: Let's Profile Muslims

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You're in favor of challenging it by out and out ignoring it and instituting policy that runs counter to it in hopes that said policy...which would already be under way...is challenged in court and HOPEFULLY wins out.
    I think I made it abundantly clear I'm in favor of challenging the ruling, not by implementation but through the court. You're point is irrelevant as it's not remotely accurate or reflective of what I've already said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You feel the current searches are "trampling our rights" based on your OPINION, so your answer is to institute something that the SCOTUS has already ruled DOES trample on peoples rights. To me, that's not makes your supposed concerns about our "rights" seem pretty transparent and hollow.
    See above... already addressed. This is not about instituting anything that's unconstitional. Refer to "implement it without profiling".

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And I acknowledge I'd be fine with your pilot program, except for the profiling, since the Supreme Court has deemed it unconstitutional. If you want to challenge it somehow and, if the challenge is won, THEN impliment it...be my guest!
    Agreed. Implement it without profiling while in parallel challenge the ruling in the court.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I've not focused on my "logistics" comment right now because you're not suggesting a nation wide role out focusing solely on an "El Al" style of system. You're suggesting a single airport, small scale test, that melds that as an additioanl layer on top of what we have. I've got no issue with that, save for the profiling.
    It would have to be tested first which would be the only reasonable method. Because it works in one country doesn't mean it will work in another with a different culture and society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Dred Scott and Brown both had the courts claiming one thing as constitutional, the law FOLLOWED that constitutional law, and then later when people challenged it again it was over turned.

    What YOU'RE suggesting is that the courts have claimed one thing as UNconstitutional, you want the law/policies to violate said constitutional law by implimenting it and then challenging it, and then hope after the fact its reversed.
    No I don't necessary want the law/policies to violate the standing constitutionality of profiling though, that still could be used as an excuse to challenge the standing law. There are multiple ways to get an issue to the SCOTUS. By having a State for example, institute a policy that clearly violates the standing ruling of the SCOTUS, it would allow supporting briefs to be added at the circuit and district levels through the appeal process. Another way would be to file amicus and challenge it outright.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Or am I misunderstanding you and you would like to bring a legal challenge against the notion of profiling FIRST, and then IF its overturned impliment your plan to profile?
    In my previous posts it was the latter, though I could see the former being used as a challenge tactic as well, though the former would be much narrower in scope and probably less effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Yes, godforbid me wanting things to be done constitutionally with regards to the constitution. Silly silly me. I mean, it's like I think the Constitution established the Supreme Court or something. Jeesh!
    Question everything!!
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Airport Security: Let's Profile Muslims

    While I believe profiling will help identify Islamic terrorist, we have to be careful with this. Not every suspected terrorist looks like a Middle-Easterner. So, behavioral analysis may be an added requirement. Still, you'd have to know suspecious behavior in order to know who's not acting normal among the hundreds of passengers who gather at airport terminals daily.

    So, while I understand the logic behind racial profiling be it to catch illegal aliens, gangbangers, drug trafficers or Islamic terrorist (because each do tend to fit a specific gender and/or racial characteristic), we still should be careful not to spread a wide net over everyone whom we think best fits the description of a Middle-Eastern male who might be an Islamist.

    It's also true, however, that Muslim communities across this nation do need to start taking a more proactive stand against acts of terrorism in this country. Unless they start speaking out and denouncing terrorist acts in greater numbers, they make it difficult to root out the bad apples amongst their people. Whites in America went through this same thing during the Civil Rights era. Until more Whites start taking a stand (mainly young white college students and white women), White America merely gave lip service to the dispicable acts of racial violence and injustice committed against Blacks. Same thing needs to happen within Muslim communities; they need to have a racial/religious uprising of their own condeming terrorism - PERIOD!

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    Re: Airport Security: Let's Profile Muslims

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    While I believe profiling will help identify Islamic terrorist, we have to be careful with this. Not every suspected terrorist looks like a Middle-Easterner. So, behavioral analysis may be an added requirement. Still, you'd have to know suspecious behavior in order to know who's not acting normal among the hundreds of passengers who gather at airport terminals daily.

    So, while I understand the logic behind racial profiling be it to catch illegal aliens, gangbangers, drug trafficers or Islamic terrorist (because each do tend to fit a specific gender and/or racial characteristic), we still should be careful not to spread a wide net over everyone whom we think best fits the description of a Middle-Eastern male who might be an Islamist.

    It's also true, however, that Muslim communities across this nation do need to start taking a more proactive stand against acts of terrorism in this country. Unless they start speaking out and denouncing terrorist acts in greater numbers, they make it difficult to root out the bad apples amongst their people. Whites in America went through this same thing during the Civil Rights era. Until more Whites start taking a stand (mainly young white college students and white women), White America merely gave lip service to the dispicable acts of racial violence and injustice committed against Blacks. Same thing needs to happen within Muslim communities; they need to have a racial/religious uprising of their own condeming terrorism - PERIOD!
    Very well worded post. Thank you very much.

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    Re: Airport Security: Let's Profile Muslims

    American Muslims cannot be profiled. They are members of Allah's Ummah. They are entitled to special rights because they are Allah's chosen people. We must learn to bow down to American Muslims.

    There is no need for American Muslims to show even the slightest degree of solidarity with non-Muslim Americans because infidels are nothing, and only Muslims are human beings. Allahu Akbar. Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawd is Gr8.

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    Re: Airport Security: Let's Profile Muslims

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    American Muslims cannot be profiled. They are members of Allah's Ummah. They are entitled to special rights because they are Allah's chosen people. We must learn to bow down to American Muslims.

    There is no need for American Muslims to show even the slightest degree of solidarity with non-Muslim Americans because infidels are nothing, and only Muslims are human beings. Allahu Akbar. Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawd is Gr8.
    Wow. Thanks for this incredibly logical persuasive, and insightful post. Great contribution to the thread here.

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    Re: Airport Security: Let's Profile Muslims

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    It's also true, however, that Muslim communities across this nation do need to start taking a more proactive stand against acts of terrorism in this country. Unless they start speaking out and denouncing terrorist acts in greater numbers, they make it difficult to root out the bad apples amongst their people.
    Muslim communities are under no obligation (nor should they be encouraged) to speak out against actions that have zero to do with them. Islam is no military that has a problem with rogue service members who operate outside the realm of legal combat. Also, white people "speaking out" didn't create a change of tide during the civil rights era... laws did, especially one enacted in 1964 that I probably don't need to go into detail describing. The concept of seeing one and thinking "all" is a failure of the observing party, not the group... and an example of such a failure would be those who see "mosque" and think "terrorism".

    By claiming that "none of my family members ever committed a terrorist act" isn't a solid enough position in denouncing terrorism, then "no one in my family ever owned a slave" can be thrown right into the same pile of garbage reasoning... no?

    Likeness in skin color or religion aren't legitimate grounds for speaking out against psychopaths.
    Because...
    The Ultimate Excuse.

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    Re: Airport Security: Let's Profile Muslims

    If the police notice a white male driving around a predominantly black neighborhood where crack cocaine is sold on the street corners, should they pull him over and ask him what his business is in the neighborhood or should they pull over and search every car in the neighborhood?

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

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    Re: Airport Security: Let's Profile Muslims

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    If the police notice a white male driving around a predominantly black neighborhood where crack cocaine is sold on the street corners, should they pull him over and ask him what his business is in the neighborhood or should they pull over and search every car in the neighborhood?
    they probably would wait for him to attempt a buy, then arrest him.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Airport Security: Let's Profile Muslims

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Quick question...

    How do you know someone is a Muslim at the airport security gate? Do they dress like a Muslim? well then the Muslim-terrorist just won't look like one. Do they talk with an Arabic accent? Well not all Muslims are Arab and one can be taught an American or other accent in phrases needed to get through an airport. Do we ask everyone in the US what their religion, because of domestic terrorists, as well as those entering the US? They can lie...

    How do we do it?
    Step One would be to look at the passport.

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