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Poll: Tea Party GOP, Obama nearly tied for leader of choice

from Zyphlin

It became known as the "Tea Party" movement as a throwback reference to the Boston Tea Party (note, the Boston Tea Party was not a political party either)
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this is what you are hanging your hat upon?!?!

The Boston Tea Party was not a reference to a political party OR a political movement but the word PARTY was a descriptive term of the activity taking place as an event.

So is the Tea Party a political party like its name implies or the event like in the Boston Tea Party?
 
haymarket said:
And if I tell you that I have heard what you are saying, dismiss what you are saying and don't give a flying crap about what you are saying - do you get that?
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Well no, I don't get it...not if you don't actually give some reasoning behind it other than "Just because".

I'm dismissing yours specifically with reasons. There is no grammatical rule nor definition that says that anything refered to as a party with a capital "P" must be a national political party. The fact a groups designated description is capitalized due to referencing the group in a formal sort of way doesn't mean it must be a political party. I'm dismissing yours because you're stating opinion as if its fact.

You're dismissing mine because...you don't like it.

I can just as easy turn it around on you and scream at you with cute little posters that mean nothing demanding that you come on my turf and deal with what I am saying.
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I am dealing with what you're saying...or at least, I did. And instead of addressing my counter to your point you continued to beat upon your strawman, demanding I show you things I never claimed existed as if that somehow proves your point.

You could just as easily turn around and do it...but unlike my doing it, yours wouldn't make sense and would be worthless.

get over yourself.
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Get over the fact that you made a statement on a debate board, I countered it, and rather than address that you decided to fall back on a classic debate fallacy and continually try to state opinion as fact?

Look, you made a statement and I debated it...welcome to a debate forum.
 
Can you give me an additional example of a modern American political party who does not operate as a party and does not and has not ever fielded candidates in elections but still has the proper title of a formal Party?
 
haymarket said:
from Zyphlin

this is what you are hanging your hat upon?!?!
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Yes, how dare I hang my hat upon reality and facts. Silly me. I should hang it upon ridiculous opinion that I prop up as fact.

The "TEA" in the Tea Party Movement name is actually an acronym for "Taxed Enough Already". That was combined with the "Party" statemented to form "Tea Party", acting as a literary device to harken back to the Boston Tea Party which could be construed as an act of wanting less government involvement, in its case with taxes. Thus, the label of the "Tea Party" was placed on the original tax day protests and the group that spurred from it due to their own self labeling as such.

The Boston Tea Party was not a reference to a political party OR a political movement but the word PARTY was a descriptive term of the activity taking place as an event.
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But you stated:

The capitalization of both letters confers upon it the status of an ongoing formal organization in the same category as every single other political party operating
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The Boston Tea Party is capitalized, therefore under your strange definition it MUST be a Political Party in line with the Republican Party, Democratic Party, etc because it uses "Party" with a capitalized P!

Or do you just get to pick and choose when your opinion becomes fact?

The true FACT is that one can capitalize the word "Party" without it meaning that the thing being referenced is a political party.

So is the Tea Party a political party like its name implies or the event like in the Boston Tea Party?
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Its name DOESN'T imply that, unless someone is judging it based on their OPINION and chooses to ignore reality of what its members have actually stated.

The Tea Party Protests were a grouping of individuals coming together to protest increasing government encroachment into peoples live.s The Tea Party Protests spawned a movement whose name derives from the protests designations, thus the Tea Party Movement. The Tea Party is not, and has not ever been, a National Political Party and you simply restating it again, and again, and again doesn't make it true.
 
haymarket said:
Can you give me an additional example of a modern American political party who does not operate as a party and does not and has not ever fielded candidates in elections but still has the proper title of a formal Party?
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Once again, strawman.

Why would I give you such an example when I'm not arguing that there's a modern political party that doesn't operate as a political party? I'm not making that argument. NO ONE IS MAKING THAT ARGUMENT.

No one...not a single solitary poster...has stated that the Tea Party is a Political Party. The only person on this thread that has been making that claim is yourself, to then turn around and beat up on that notion.

know what that's called? Say it with me...Strawman.

See, here's the really funny thing. I agree with you. There is NOT a national political party known as the "Tea Party", or more accurately the "Tea Party Party". There is no political group out there that is the Political Party of "Tea's" like the Republican Party is the party of Republicans or the Democratic Party is the party of Democrats. There's not a group of people going around stating "I'm a Tea'er" or "I vote Tea". There's absolutely no national political party for "Tea" or for the "Tea Party". When people...typically liberals...try to suggest that there is I am always happy to inform them their wrong.

Where we split is the fact that YOU seem to think anyone that uses the capital P in Party is magically in "code words" stating that its a political party. Where as I look at those people stating "its not a political party" and don't make believe that they're actually lying and stealthily trying to really say that its a political party.
 
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from Zyphlin

The "TEA" in the Tea Party Movement name is actually an acronym for "Taxed Enough Already". That was combined with the "Party" statemented to form "Tea Party", acting as a literary device to harken back to the Boston Tea Party which could be construed as an act of wanting less government involvement, in its case with taxes. Thus, the label of the "Tea Party" was placed on the original tax day protests and the group that spurred from it due to their own self labeling as such.
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did that come before or after the people with the tea bags hanging from their hats and signs proclaiming their intent to 'teabag Obama"?

And the Boston Tea Party name was a reference to the polite social events known as tea parties given by upper crust ladies. It had nothing to do with any political party.

The Boston Tea Party is capitalized, therefore under your strange definition it MUST be a Political Party in line with the Republican Party, Democratic Party, etc because it uses "Party" with a capitalized P!
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Not at all. I can separate an event whose name was a parody on social events at the time that both involved tea and understand that the word "party" was in reference to the activities taking place on that boat and in the harbor with the modern usage of the term which capitalized with the name of an organization in front of it. The real question is why can't you?

The Tea Party Protests were a grouping of individuals coming together to protest increasing government encroachment into peoples live.s The Tea Party Protests spawned a movement whose name derives from the protests designations, thus the Tea Party Movement.
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Then use the term properly. Use it as the Tea Party Movement and the third word defines what it is. Use it as the Tea Party Protests and the third word defines what it is. But when you drop those third words and reduce it to Tea Party it becomes a falsehood because it is not a party and that word identifies what it is.
 
Whovian said:
haymarket... strawman...

:rofl:
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in my best or worst Claude Raines ... I am shocked that would disagree with me ... simply shocked!!!!.:shock::shock:
 
haymarket said:
Then use the term properly. Use it as the Tea Party Movement and the third word defines what it is. Use it as the Tea Party Protests and the third word defines what it is. But when you drop those third words and reduce it to Tea Party it becomes a falsehood because it is not a party and that word identifies what it is.
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Your OPINION does not equal official proper use.

I will ask again.

Show me anything definitive stating as a fact that the use of the word party with a capital P for any purpose...seemingly other than lampooning old ladies tea parties...indicates one is speaking about a Political Party.

Your OPINION is not fact.
 
So in the examples YOU GAVE and in the response that I gave

Then use the term properly. Use it as the Tea Party Movement and the third word defines what it is. Use it as the Tea Party Protests and the third word defines what it is. But when you drop those third words and reduce it to Tea Party it becomes a falsehood because it is not a party and that word identifies what it is.
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what exactly is factually wrong?

Show me anything definitive stating as a fact that the use of the word party with a capital P for any purpose...seemingly other than lampooning old ladies tea parties...indicates one is speaking about a Political Party.
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You show me an example from the modern American political world where there is a usage for something called a "Party" with a proper name in front of it that is not a regular political party like the Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians or anyone else that runs candidates in elections and is on the ballot.
 
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spud_meister said:
What's Obama done that's unconstitutional?
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There have been many questionable things. Several states are suing over the HC mandate as being unconstitutional. Perhaps the pledge from the Republicans will get rid of anymore questionable legislation.


http://pledge.gop.gov/resources/library/documents/solutions/a-pledge-to-america.pdf
parties. "]We will require that every bill
contain a citation of Constitutional
authority. [/SIZE][/B]We will give all Representatives
and citizens at least three days to read the
bill before a vote. We will make sure that
the floor schedule and operations reflect the
priority of revitalizing the economy, and
ensure there is an open process that makes
it easier – not harder – to eliminate
unnecessary spending on any legislation
 
haymarket said:
sorry - I do not buy your line of argument. A capitalization of a name before the word party confers upon it the status of a formal political organization that provides the normal functions of a formal political organization. This is true of

Democratic Party
Republican Party
Communist Party
Socialist Party
Libertarian Party

and many more.

This should be very simple for you. Please tell me in which state the Tea Party was on the ballot.



It is a recognized movement within the Republican Party. It is NOT a political party and as such does NOT deserve the title others have given it.
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Is anyone calling it the tea party party? Or The Tea Party Party?
 
Cochise said:
I'd be more tolerant of the Tea Party if they really invested in across-the-board small-government conservatism and didn't act as a party constituency. But given what people think about their contribution to the election, I see them acting like a faction. I'd like to be able to count myself as a Tea Partier at some point.
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You would have to be for liberty, not for taking folks money to give it to native tribes, to start. :shrug:
 
haymarket said:
When they get on the ballot as an official political party with their own candidates for office they then become the Tea Party. Until then they are using a title that they are not.
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Funny, I don't remember a caucus and I am in the tea party. :shrug:


Wait, cause it's not a political party. :roll:
 
Barbbtx said:
Is anyone calling it the tea party party? Or The Tea Party Party?
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which would be redundant.

from the good Rev

Funny, I don't remember a caucus and I am in the tea party
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Perfect usage. I honestly applaud you for it.:)
 
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haymarket said:
So in the examples YOU GAVE and in the response that I gave

what exactly is factually wrong?
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The very first thing you say, that the term "party" is being used "improperly", is factually incorrect. That is nothing but your opinion that its being used improperly, and a poor opinion at that. A party can be a group of persons with common purposes or opinions who support one side of a debate, dispute, issue, etc. A party can be a group gathered for a special purpose or task. And yes, a party can even be a group of persons with common political opinions and purposes organized for gaining political influence or control WITHOUT the need for it to be recognized officially as a "political party" in the legal sense.

All of those definitions could easily apply to the Tea Party movement, so stating that it is using the term "improperly" is not Factually correct.

You show me an example from the modern American political world where there is a usage for something called a "Party" with a proper name in front of it that is not a regular political party like the Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians or anyone else that runs candidates in elections and is on the ballot.
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Simply because something has not done it before in the modern time doesn't mean it can't be done or is improper to do.
 
spud_meister said:
What's Obama done that's unconstitutional?
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He signed off on a bill, that authrorizes a private army, that answers only to the president; and that forces American citizens to purchase a product, or face penalties. Those things are unconstitutional.
 
A party can be a group of persons with common purposes or opinions who support one side of a debate, dispute, issue, etc.
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but that is NOT the usage when you say Tea Party.

I asked you this

You show me an example from the modern American political world where there is a usage for something called a "Party" with a proper name in front of it that is not a regular political party like the Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians or anyone else that runs candidates in elections and is on the ballot.
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here is your reply

Simply because something has not done it before in the modern time doesn't mean it can't be done or is improper to do.
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Has it occurred to you that it has not been done because it is improper and the fact that it has not been done is evidence that other know it and accept it as improper rule or no rule?
 
haymarket said:
You show me an example from the modern American political world where there is a usage for something called a "Party" with a proper name in front of it that is not a regular political party like the Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians or anyone else that runs candidates in elections and is on the ballot.
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Boston Tea Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
haymarket said:
but that is NOT the usage when you say Tea Party.
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Actually that's exactly the usage. Its a group of people who share common views and ideas regarding politics and are loosely organized to push said views.

Has it occurred to you that it has not been done because it is improper and the fact that it has not been done is evidence that other know it and accept it as improper rule or no rule?
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Fallacy again. Simply because something has not been done does not prove that its improper to be done. Correlation does not mean causation. The fact that a group hasn't gained notice on a national level that has used "party" as a means of describing itself does not somehow prove its improper or wrong to use it, it just simply means it hasn't been used.

Much like your talk with the Boston Tea Party, the use of "party" in the Tea Party monicor is there for imagery and allagory, in their case to the "tea parties" of the british women and in the current tea party movements case to the Boston Tea Party itself.

Since "party" is already an accepted and defined way of referencing a large group of people there was no real reason to give it a secondary continual designation as it already has one.

Your arguing your opinion, that you FEEL that it should be improper because you don't like it and its not commonly used. I'm arguing fact, by pointing out an actual definition that clearly fits.
 
haymarket said:
which would be redundant.





.:)
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No it would only be redundant if it was called simply Tea. If they ever did want to be an official party and be on the ballot as such, they would be the Tea Party Party.
 
We agree then to disagree.
 
Barbbtx said:
No it would only be redundant if it was called simply Tea. If they ever did want to be an official party and be on the ballot as such, they would be the Tea Party Party.
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Only if their activities are intended to parody upper crust females with upturned pinkies and water cress sandwiches.
 
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