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Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

I have no problem with different paths, as long as the goals are clear and standards are met. We lived for a few years in a small town in Idaho, with mostly farmers on the school board, and an exjock as superintendent. Standards were low in academics, but high in sports...
Parental expectations, IMO, is the primary issue that frustrates good teachers. When the student CAN, but won't, and parents won't get involved, what can you do?

Bingo.

Kids generally meet the demands of their parents, although not always quietly without rebuttal. Too many parents spend their time explaining away their kids' failures, instead of using that failure as a template for what to work on next.
 
from Erod



That is a great story - thanks for sharing it. Its amazing how similar our lives were. But I did not go to my graduation for college since I knew I was going on to a Masters and it did not mean that much to me. No ring either.... but I did get a different kind of ring that same summer and treasure that.

btw - I do not consider myself liberal. I eschew labels. I do admit that many of my views are on the left side of what others would call a progressive. But I also take some conservative positions on some issues. I really do not like the idea that we are like butterflies with pins in us and there is some label underneath identifying us to the world. But thats just me.

I don't consider "conservative" as a label as much as just a general state of common sense and personal responsibility. Perhaps I don't share your optimism with people in general. Call that cynical, but I don't see much work ethic or positive intent in a lot of people these days. Just look at our elected officials. Look at what people look up to. I was in New York a couple weeks ago, and people in general there are just a-holes. Uncaring, self-absorbed, rude a-holes.

Core values are lost these days on a disturbing percentage of the populace.
 
I have found that in the majority of cases (certainly with exceptions) being intelligent goes a long way in helping you get "rich." Many "rich" people will tell you that education is one of the most important things.

Our daughter, Bachelors in Economics, tells me I have an abundance of useless knowledge. Times change, I guess SOME or our knowledge no longer has value...:shock:
 
from Utah Bill

I have no problem with different paths, as long as the goals are clear and standards are met.

Here is the real problem that does not make for a good four word slogan on a bumper sticker or can be adopted as a catch phrase by a politician: we have gotten caught up in the game of comparing the scores of American students on standardized tests to those of students from other nations on standardized tests. And when some American kids fall behind some foreign children, we panic and demand that American schools "measure up".

Go and study Japanese schools. I did. Japan has one school system. One. Every public school kid across Japan learns the same thing from the same curriculum at the same time in the same grade regardless of what public school they attend. This is true if they attend in Hiroshima or Tokyo, Okinawa or Sapporo. Teachers do not spend time on lesson plans or tests. All this is provided for by the central office in Tokyo. When it is time for standardized tests, the students tend to do well because everything on the curriculum and on the standardized tests have been dovetailed together seamlessly. That is also the rule in many other nations.

The opposite is the way we do things here in America. But we still want to compare test scores and cry when we come up short.

There is a price we pay for local control of local schools. We need to face that and we need to have a discussion if it is worth that price.
 
You know how Jay Leno does that thing where he asks people on the streets to identify people in pictures, and they can Jessica Simpson, but not Joe Biden? While funny, it also makes my stomach sink.

I think the biggest issue is the lack of parenting within the home. My dad scared the crap out of us at home about our grades. You brought home a C, especially in something that required basic study discipline like history or health, and your next six weeks were going to be pure hell.

Nowdays, it seems most parents don't even care enough to look at a report card, and if their kid gets held back, they picket the school.

That sort of household culture works for certain children while other techniques work for others. For example one of my kids sees his intellect (which is formidable to the point where the county wants to skip him a few grades) as attached to his self esteem. This causes him to seek out new knowledge continually.

My other kid has realized that knowing stuff allows him to do more stuff (which is an amazing thing for a 6 yearold to figure out) and that it is his motivation.

Alternatively, I know families that have a culture like you describe and all it does is to serve to demotivate the children and stress them out.

I think the best method is an unspoken understanding within the family unit that knowing stuff is important as children emulate what we do, not what we say. Then, whatever conscious actions you layer on top of it can futher help with that or hinder it.
 
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That sort of household culture works for certain children while other techniques work for others. For example one of my kids sees his intellect (which is formidable to the point where the county wants to skip him a few grades) as attached to his self esteem. This causes him to seek out new knowledge continually.

My other kid has realized that knowing stuff allows him to do more stuff (which is an amazing thing for a 6 yearold to figure out) and that it is his motivation.

Alternatively, I know families that have a culture like you describe and all it does is to serve to demotivate the children and stress them out.

I think the best method is an unspoken understanding within the family unit that knowing stuff is important as children emulate what we do, not what we say. Then, whatever conscious actions you layer on top of it can futher help with that or hinder it.

Perhaps I overstated. We had a loving father, but he just didn't tolerate laziness. I made him sound like a brute.

But I mean, how do you fail history if you put half an effort into it? That was his point. A lot of parents - a LOT of parents - simply dont give a rip.
 
Perhaps I overstated. We had a loving father, but he just didn't tolerate laziness. I made him sound like a brute.

But I mean, how do you fail history if you put half an effort into it? That was his point. A lot of parents - a LOT of parents - simply dont give a rip.

My child just brought home a straight A report card and we took him to the restaurant of his choice as a result (which turned out to be McDonalds), however, we rarely mention school performance as a family. The kids just know, by the expressions in our faces, whether it is joy or dissapointment, what we are happy or not happy about, what we expect. There is no punishment because there doesn't need to be. Secretly, even though they protest much and often, kids tend to want to be on good terms with their parents.

For example, there are times where our kids misbehave and have decided that they are going to do so no matter how much we punish them or how harsh the punishment is. But the moment my wife gets frustrated and simply asks the kids to behave in a heartfelt manner, they always snap to and be good children again (until next time of course, but thats parenthood for you). When there is love, there is motivation.

That was my point.
 
Maybe it is because North Dakota is doing good....but I feel very much in line with the American dream. It's not coming without struggles, but I need to be optimistic.
 
from Utah Bill



Here is the real problem that does not make for a good four word slogan on a bumper sticker or can be adopted as a catch phrase by a politician: we have gotten caught up in the game of comparing the scores of American students on standardized tests to those of students from other nations on standardized tests. And when some American kids fall behind some foreign children, we panic and demand that American schools "measure up".

Go and study Japanese schools. I did. Japan has one school system. One. Every public school kid across Japan learns the same thing from the same curriculum at the same time in the same grade regardless of what public school they attend. This is true if they attend in Hiroshima or Tokyo, Okinawa or Sapporo. Teachers do not spend time on lesson plans or tests. All this is provided for by the central office in Tokyo. When it is time for standardized tests, the students tend to do well because everything on the curriculum and on the standardized tests have been dovetailed together seamlessly. That is also the rule in many other nations.

The opposite is the way we do things here in America. But we still want to compare test scores and cry when we come up short.

There is a price we pay for local control of local schools. We need to face that and we need to have a discussion if it is worth that price.

But you can't compare a tiny (land-mass wise) country with basically an indigenous poplulation to the multiple environments in America.

The school district in Laredo, Texas, is entirely different than in D.C. or Omaha or Mobile. The one-size-fits-all approach just dumbs it all down.

I laugh at the TAKS tests in Texas. In south Dallas, they complain that it's way too demanding and unfair, while my kids and their friends outside the city ace it like it's nothing. You should see how ridiculously easy the test is.

School shouldn't be run by the federal government. Communities know best what their specific kids needs are.
 
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But you can't compare a tiny (land-mass wise) country with basically an indigenous poplulation to the multiple environments in America.

The school district in Laredo, Texas, is entirely different than in D.C. or Omaha or Mobile. The one-size-fits-all approach just dumbs it all down.

I laugh at the TAKS tests in Texas. In south Dallas, they complain that it's way too demanding and unfair, while my kids and their friends outside the city ace it like it's nothing. You should see how ridiculously easy the test is.

School shouldn't be run by the federal government. Communities know best what they're specific kids needs.

You cannot have it both ways. There is a price to pay for local systems and local control and we are paying it. Japan is a very populated nation of 127 million people and tens of millions of students. I really don't see the geography as an issue here in what curriculum and standards schools will have.

To be really ones with you, right wing paranoia about the federal government running schools is a serious obstacle to true educational reform.
 
Absolutely it is, I don't want it to be moreso. Like I said...Pandora's Box.

I don't see where it is denied to anyone. It's there for the taking, if they really want it.

Well, if it's already open :shrug: then you can't close it - there's no point in trying.

Might as well adapt, adjust and improve.
 
Our daughter, Bachelors in Economics, tells me I have an abundance of useless knowledge. Times change, I guess SOME or our knowledge no longer has value...:shock:

Just smile at her and tell her that one day (and soon) her own children will look at her and say the exact same thing...
 
Speaking of the American Dream, I channel-surfed into a prog by that name this evening, to see an old black guy recalling his war service, how he fought in Europe, was captured and sent to Stalag Luft Three, the "Great Escape" POW camp. He remembered his surprise and pleasure at being treated as an equal by his captors, if not his comrades, and of returning to New York on a troopship after the war ended, and walked down the gangplank to be told "Whites to the right, niggers to the left!" and knowing he was home.
 
Speaking of the American Dream, I channel-surfed into a prog by that name this evening, to see an old black guy recalling his war service, how he fought in Europe, was captured and sent to Stalag Luft Three, the "Great Escape" POW camp. He remembered his surprise and pleasure at being treated as an equal by his captors, if not his comrades, and of returning to New York on a troopship after the war ended, and walked down the gangplank to be told "Whites to the right, niggers to the left!" and knowing he was home.

Yeah, those Nazis really knew how to treat minorities, didn't they?
 
Yeah, those Nazis really knew how to treat minorities, didn't they?

Well - we Americans sure know how to treat our own citizens, don't we?

A bit of sarcasm, there - but it makes the point.
 
Speaking of the American Dream, I channel-surfed into a prog by that name this evening, to see an old black guy recalling his war service, how he fought in Europe, was captured and sent to Stalag Luft Three, the "Great Escape" POW camp. He remembered his surprise and pleasure at being treated as an equal by his captors, if not his comrades, and of returning to New York on a troopship after the war ended, and walked down the gangplank to be told "Whites to the right, niggers to the left!" and knowing he was home.

For many years the teacher in the room next to mine was an older African American gentleman who was in the army in World War II. As a child, he learned to speak fluent German from a neighbor. When he entered the service, he was made a translator for German Nazi soldiers who were in prison camps in the USA. Periodically he would ride on the bus with them when they were transferred from the first base they were sent to before going to their final place of confinement. This was in the southern part of the USA.

He related that when they stopped to eat meals at restaurants, the Nazi prisoners were allowed to walk right through the front door of the restaurant, sit at the tables and eat their food. He, a United States citizen wearing the uniform of his nation, had to either go around back and eat in the kitchen or have a plate brought out to the bus for him. He related that when the Nazi prisoners first saw this and realized what was going on they could not believe it.
 
Concerning grades and motivating kids, cash worked well for us. Starting in 8th grade, we paid $5 for A's, nothing for B's, and they paid us for C's or lower....
Between the 2 of them, there was only a few B's in 4 years of school. The amount went up an additinal $5 per year, so by grade 12 an A was worth $20, and an all A report card got a $20 bonus. Honors classes, a B counted as an A.

I promised the 7 grandkids the same deal, but starting in grade 6. It's gonna be expensive by the time it is all over...
 
There have been some very good points made as to why the American Dream is still attainable and why it may not be. Still, from what I've reasoned from the various posts herein, it all boils down to three things:

1. How hard are YOU willing to work for whatever it is you want out of life?

2. What sacrafices are YOU willing to made in order to reach that dream?

3. How ethical are businesses willing to be in order for the inhabitants of this country to seak out an "honest day's work for a hard day's pay?"

If you believe people are inherently lazy, then it's fair to assume you accept the view that very few people will ever put forth the hard work or dedication it takes to attain item #1.

If you're unwilling to make the hard sacrafices needed to attain item #1, then you're likely to remain stagnent in life.

If businesses are conducting themselves ethically, they likely will never have to move overseas to escape frivilious lawsuits in the first place.

Our industrial and technological world changes every day. Some jobs go away due to advances in technology (i.e., that typewriter repairman or door-to-door vacuum or insurance salesman), but some jobs remain (clerk typist/secretary, court stenographer, land surveyor). The trick is finding something you're good at doing, and doing something you're passionate about. Still, for some it's also about knowing when to set your pride upon the shelf and seak re-education/re-training OR relocating if the skills you have are no longer in demand in the area where you live. Tough calls all around, but we're human...people...mammals. We adapt.
 
Good point - Objective.
When you mention business-ethics that brings up a thought:

Wages *from businesses* in some areas, as a percentage of their earnings or in relation to the labor they cover, has gone down - or has not risen as much as the inflation of all these others costs and expenses.

How much did someone earn in construction 50 years ago? What would that pay in "today's dollars" - and is it equivalent to the increase (or decrease) seen in other jobs? If the pay for said work was above-average 50 years ago, but today the pay for that is now below-average . .. then there's a huge disparity right there that does not point to the individual - but the ethics of the employer.
 
from Utah Bill



We did the same with our two. Although I told them that they could go to any college within driving distance and we would pay the tuition and books and could live at home as long as they wanted to. We passed on the older family cars to them as their first car. We did tell that them that if they wanted to live away from home and go away to college, the board cost would be on them. Neither did so and both finished school without owing one penny to anybody for anything.



So how long did you spend in the service? How did that food compare to your mothers?

Vote liberal and live conservative. ;)
 
BUYING a house is overrated anyway. . . especially when you consider that most homes are never paid off. Gee: massive debt! What a dream (more like a nightmare).

I would, right now, prefer I didn't have my own home - an apartment or condo with a reasonable rate would be fabulous.The perks: maintenance isn't up *to you* - if you have a busy life it's perfect.

I was under the impression maintenance has to be paid for extra as in grass cutting etc. At least that's the way it is at my parent's condo in Florida.
 
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The "American Dream" is a house with a white picket fence and a two-car garage, two kids, and a quiet little neighborhood. It's just an age-old, Norman Rockwell-like expression. It's still there to be had.

Now we have massive divorce rates, complete absentee parenting, women having four kids with four different dudes, Bob and Jim trying to get hitched at First Baptist United and adopt little Billy, and all hopefully in the haze of legalized drugs.

Yep, the American Dream is different for different people.

Not into hyperbole are you? :lamo

You right wingers are all the same. Everybody's out for handouts and is morally corrupt except you. :roll:
 
True enough...but going back to the OP and Suze's comments (I actually like her BTW...she's a good speaker and very personable 'in person') I still believe the basics are VERY attainable.

Look...its just a matter of application and hard work. it doesnt happen overnight, but then...it never has. I guarantee you...we can take ANYONE with basic skills and an average IQ (and I mean ANYONE regardless of their current circumstances) and if they are willing to put in the work create for them a plan that in 4-5 years has them in a career that they like with benefits, retirment, and earning a livable wage.

Yep and expecially since the economy is going gangbusters!

Too bad I know several people that did all the right things like education, with impressive resumes and job experience and can't get a job to safe their life right now. Not into generalizations much are you?
 
Any way you look at it, and whatever is done to try and fix this country, there is one inescapable conclusion. The standard of living for most Americans is going to deteriorate. Our children will be worse off than we are, and their children will be worse off than our children are.
 
Any way you look at it, and whatever is done to try and fix this country, there is one inescapable conclusion. The standard of living for most Americans is going to deteriorate. Our children will be worse off than we are, and their children will be worse off than our children are.

Why do you assume this?

Why, in this day and age of advancement and knowledge, would the world digress?

My children will are better off now than I was at their age - but I can't apply our life circumstances to everyone.
 
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