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Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

What era or region of living are you talking about?

I don't know anyone who was an average person who worked an average job and lived comfortably while supporting their family. Average employment has always meant barely making ends meet for many - often the hard work of both spouses was necessary to make ends meet without beig able to afford luxuries. And they definitely weren't making enough to live comfortably and to take an actual vacation.

I grew up in Dearborn, Michigan home of the Ford Motor Company. Most of the men on my street either worked for Fords or for suppliers for auto companies. They had nice houses built after the war, could buy a new care every five or six years, feed and clothe their families (which had a lot more kids then than families today), could have wives stay at home and live on one income and even educate their kids in private schools - at least the Catholic families did.

These were all men who worked in manufacturing jobs and wore work clothes, left with metal lunch boxes in the dark in the morning and came home dirty in the evening.

Every summer we went on vacation to a camping village called Camp Dearborn and lived in army barracks type tents for a week or two and thought we were on the French Riveria since they had two lakes and even a swimming pool. My father could have four kids and do this and live in dignity because he was a union member in a union shop.
 
You are missing the point and perhaps it is my fault for not explaining it well. Allow me to try again.

In most of the 20th century was been room in America for decent folks who wanted to work hard to be middle class productive citizens who could hold up their head in the community even if they were not the fastest or the brightest, or if they were not the most talented or skilled, or if they were not business owners or had inherited wealth. They could be less than average intelligence but still find middle class employment wages in manufacturing jobs which paid union wages and benefits.

For many of those same folks today, that option is gone and nothing has replaced it for them.

It is silly to tell them to go to college and become computer experts. It is silly to tell them to learn new skills for which they do not have the capacity or intelligence to do. If the average IQ is 100 - half the people are at or below that. We are fast becoming a society where there is no real productive place for that person. And if there is a place at all, its a far more lower paid and less dignified place that existed just a decade ago.

I think that is what many people talk about when they are saying that the American Dream is dead for many for whom it was alive and well before.

How bright do you have to be to work at a cell phone store selling phones? How bright do you have to be to work in a call center? How bright do you have to be to stock shelves or work construction? I am not saying those are bad jobs, but come on, you don't have to be Einstein to fill out some paperwork to rent someone a car do you?

Maybe we should examine why manufacturing jobs have been leaving.. could it be related in anyway to the fact that unions demanded far more in wages than the workers probably deserved under a free market system?

You seem to be arguing that a person is entitled to a "dignified" wage simply because they are alive... that is absurd. They are entitled to what they have earned.
 
Let me give you an American dream success story...Joe Schmoe takes a job at Taco Bell. He proves after about 2 weeks to be a trustworthy and hard worker (and in the meantime...joe works weekends at the 7-11...dude is going to make this work). He is promoted to a shift manager...not great pay...but some bennies...and yes...he still has to work 2 jobs...no one said this was going to be easy. Lss than 6 months later he is asked if he is interested in training with Pepsico to be an assistant store manager. not great pay...but promoted to 26.5 salary (about 5 k less than average in the community...still has that second job. Less than 2 years later he gets his own corporate store...36k. Does a great job...now he is an RGM...5 years later he works out of his home office and only occasionally stops by the three stores he manages.

EVERY situation? Nope...but it happens all the time. As long as we are living in a service based economy...you better understand the game and know how to play. it helps if you talk to people that can help. But we see people like this every day.

Vance, yes that happens. And I am glad it does. Good for Joe and God bless him. But do you understand that I am not talking about a middle management type person here?

NolaMan

you seem to be arguing about something I am not arguing about. What I am saying is that the reality of 2010 has killed the American Dream for millions of Americans who do not fit into that reality. It did for their older sibling. It did for their parents. It did for their grandparents. But now it is dead for them.

that is my point here in reference to the thread topic
 
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Let me give you an American dream success story...Joe Schmoe takes a job at Taco Bell. He proves after about 2 weeks to be a trustworthy and hard worker (and in the meantime...joe works weekends at the 7-11...dude is going to make this work). He is promoted to a shift manager...not great pay...but some bennies...and yes...he still has to work 2 jobs...no one said this was going to be easy. Lss than 6 months later he is asked if he is interested in training with Pepsico to be an assistant store manager. not great pay...but promoted to 26.5 salary (about 5 k less than average in the community...still has that second job. Less than 2 years later he gets his own corporate store...36k. Does a great job...now he is an RGM...5 years later he works out of his home office and only occasionally stops by the three stores he manages.

EVERY situation? Nope...but it happens all the time. As long as we are living in a service based economy...you better understand the game and know how to play. it helps if you talk to people that can help. But we see people like this every day.

I will give you another example.. I personally know a guy who started out in high school at McDonalds cooking burgers. He did not go to college, but ultimately became manager, and then ultimately bought the store..he now owns 16 McDonalds.
 
NolaMan

you seem to be arguing about something I am not arguing about. What I am saying is that the reality of 2010 has killed the American Dream for millions of Americans who do not fit into that reality. It did for their older sibling. It did for their parents. It did for their grandparents. But now it is dead for them.

that is my point here in reference to the thread topic

My point is simply that the American dream is not an entitlement. It is there for people who want to work for it. Times change.. that is the reality of 2010. The American Dream is not dead, you just have to take a different road to get to it.
 
My point is simply that the American dream is not an entitlement. It is there for people who want to work for it. Times change.. that is the reality of 2010. The American Dream is not dead, you just have to take a different road to get to it.

I do not know if it is an entitlement or not or even what that word means to you. What I do know is that as long as we were a society where the American Dream existed for almost everyone, we were a far healthier society. Killing a middle class life for tens of millions of persons is not a good thing in a democratic republic.
 
Vance, yes that happens. And I am glad it does. Good for Joe and God bless him. But do you understand that I am not talking about a middle management type person here?

If someone can put on a buttoned shirt with help...they can learn. We are talking average IQs here...not rocket scientists. And I have news for you...IQ and learning potential is relevant...its not like they arent capable of learning new and different skills. the question is...how much do you like to eat? How do you feel about being able to put shoes on your kids? Neccessity is a mutha!
 
I will give you another example.. I personally know a guy who started out in high school at McDonalds cooking burgers. He did not go to college, but ultimately became manager, and then ultimately bought the store..he now owns 16 McDonalds.

Doesnt shock or surprise me at all. I worked with a guy several years ago who dreamed of being a pro baseball player...problem was he hadnt played organized ball in years. So..we shifted gears...picked a career path that had him playing baseball in college if he was good enough (he wasnt) and coaching baseball as a fallback (he is).

The silver spoon mythn simply doesnt happen all that often. Hard work, baby. I dont care if it is a career in astro-phy or owning your own lawn care service.
 
I grew up in Dearborn, Michigan home of the Ford Motor Company. Most of the men on my street either worked for Fords or for suppliers for auto companies. They had nice houses built after the war, could buy a new care every five or six years, feed and clothe their families (which had a lot more kids then than families today), could have wives stay at home and live on one income and even educate their kids in private schools - at least the Catholic families did.

These were all men who worked in manufacturing jobs and wore work clothes, left with metal lunch boxes in the dark in the morning and came home dirty in the evening.

Every summer we went on vacation to a camping village called Camp Dearborn and lived in army barracks type tents for a week or two and thought we were on the French Riveria since they had two lakes and even a swimming pool. My father could have four kids and do this and live in dignity because he was a union member in a union shop.

Ok - there's some context, now your point makes more sense.

Inflation, then is the main key to the change - everything is more expensive. Everything rises in value, cost - taxes, wages, labor - everything is up.

What a missed opportunity, though - working husband brings in a comfortable salary and all the women did was sit at home and watch the kids? I see that as a missed opportunity to make significant income with both being gainfully employed.
 
I do not know if it is an entitlement or not or even what that word means to you.

I am saying that no one can be born and expect that they are going to live a great life. I will give you another example of a friend of mine. He worked for GM his whole life, had his retirement with them etc... lost everything when they went bankrupt. He was close to losing his house, but instead he started one of those baseball training facilities (he was a former minor league baseball player) and now is running a profitable business and turning things around.

The American Dream is not a house and picket fense, it is working hard to get what you want.

What I do know is that as long as we were a society where the American Dream existed for almost everyone, we were a far healthier society. Killing a middle class life for tens of millions of persons is not a good thing in a democratic republic.

It still exists for everyone if they want to go grab it.
 
Ok - there's some context, now your point makes more sense.

Inflation, then is the main key to the change - everything is more expensive. Everything rises in value, cost - taxes, wages, labor - everything is up.

What a missed opportunity, though - working husband brings in a comfortable salary and all the women did was sit at home and watch the kids? I see that as a missed opportunity to make significant income with both being gainfully employed.

And as far as Michigan goes...well...yep...they ahve well and truly screwed that place up. Blame the management...blame the unions... but in the immortal words of Sam Kinneson...if you live in a drought stricken desert...MOVE! Part of understanding the game also means learning about home field...and sometimes you have to change ballparks.
 
Ok - there's some context, now your point makes more sense.

Inflation, then is the main key to the change - everything is more expensive. Everything rises in value, cost - taxes, wages, labor - everything is up.

What a missed opportunity, though - working husband brings in a comfortable salary and all the women did was sit at home and watch the kids? I see that as a missed opportunity to make significant income with both being gainfully employed.

Adding onto this (too late to edit)

Perhaps thinking of *that* as a continually obtainable standard is the problem.
That seems more of a "peak-time" or "optimal time" to me than an average and obtainable life-standard that most people should be able to meet and maintain.
 
from Aunt Spiker

What a missed opportunity, though - working husband brings in a comfortable salary and all the women did was sit at home and watch the kids? I see that as a missed opportunity to make significant income with both being gainfully employed.

the wives were busy and doing something very positive to both their families and the larger society. To intimate that they missed some opportunity to merely make more money is devaluing their immense contribution.

from NolaMan

It still exists for everyone if they want to go grab it.

We clearly see this very differently. It exists for some.
 
Adding onto this (too late to edit)

Perhaps thinking of *that* as a continually obtainable standard is the problem.
That seems more of a "peak-time" or "optimal time" to me than an average and obtainable life-standard that most people should be able to meet and maintain.

you could have a point with that. And perhaps we should do all we can as a people and as a society to achieve that again.
 
I can't dis Sahm's too much because I was one for 7 years - now I'm a college mom.

None the less - I think *back then* the average woman couldn't get a reasonable job even if she wanted to. It was socially discouraged - and if you had kids it was financially impossible (daycare's always been expensive). . . . but my initial thoughts are always misguided.

From what I've read on the subject of post-WWII America - most women wanted to have that ideal family-life, being a Sahm with a nice family and a lovely home - working husband (Men weren't the only ones who embraced this idea).
Many women who were in their 20's and 30's grew up in post Great Depression and WWII America which was turned upside down. For decades the very notion of having this life was an amazing thing - and when they could make it happen, they sacrificed a lot to pull it together and keep it together.

Now, in the 21st Century - that wartime thought and emotion niche is forgotten by most - remembered only by those who lived it - and is looked on from a 'it's history' perspective which acts as a buffer.

The American Dream, in that sense, then would be illusive - and a life pay-off for your hard work if you planned ahead for it and made sacrifices to make it happen. ( I know someone just wrote this view of it a page or two ago)

So I guess the American Dream has changed with the times.
What was *just a dream that few achieved* back then is now a standard - over 50% of the populous owns a home these days. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

So - what was a smaller "American Dream" back then has merely expanded.
I, by those standards, am living the American Dream and then some. . . but I don't consider myself to have achieved something worthy to note at all - or to pine for (obviously) and in fact I discourage people from wanting to step into a mortgage and so on.

Hmm - good subject. I wonder what my husband's view of this is. Does he consider himself to have achieved the American Dream? If not - why so? I bet you his response is 'yes' - buying the house was his idea.
 
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Again, you have a point. I do feel that to dismiss the past simply because the modern attitude "that was then and this is now" is foolish when the past can offer a better way.
 
Again, you have a point. I do feel that to dismiss the past simply because the modern attitude "that was then and this is now" is foolish when the past can offer a better way.

Yeah, good point - we shoud always look to the past to learn.
But you shouldn't live in it, you know - the things learned from the past are only useful when applied to the future.
 
Sane conservatives, yes, but we have a lot of extreme right that will agree with your post in principle, but balk at paying taxes to accomplish the training required.

No one paid for my college. I worked nights in a grocery store to do that myself. Why should I pay for theirs if they're too lazy to do less than glamorous work?
 
No one paid for my college. I worked nights in a grocery store to do that myself. Why should I pay for theirs if they're too lazy to do less than glamorous work?

We have much in common then as I worked midnights and weekends to pay for my education also.

But I also realize that what worked for me may not work for all.
 
We have much in common then as I worked midnights and weekends to pay for my education also.

But I also realize that what worked for me may not work for all.

Well, somebody has to dig the ditches.

It all boils down to one thing: work. Ya gotta get out and make a living somehow. The, "somehow", is up to you. Either way, it's unacceptable to sit on one's ass and wait for the mailman to drop off the welfare check.
 
You seem to have plenty of time to hang around here for all the work you say you do.

So I can't have a Thanksgiving break or post stuff on my phone? Geez. Anyways I don't see the dream as most see (or are told what the dream is supposed to be). My biggest dream is to own a ****load of stocks so I can make money just by betting on the right horses. I give it another 5 years until I do that, once I do I've met my dream.

Also how did this thread turn into yet another discussion of why people shouldn't be on welfare like somebody actually associates that with the American dream?
 
Says the guy with 17,000+ post. :roll:

There is no doubt that there are many out there who work their butts off and still cannot afford to buy a house, let alone keep up with surmounting bills. Not everyone who makes less that 25,000K is a lazy welfare bum.

And maybe some people aren't as busy as they say.
 
We have much in common then as I worked midnights and weekends to pay for my education also.

But I also realize that what worked for me may not work for all.

And this is where we have a massive departure in philosophy.

College should not be an entitlement, as liberals seem to think. A degree should MEAN something.

Having a degree doesn't tell someone that much about you, other than you had the initiative to start something difficult and see it through despite not getting paid during the process. I understand there are the privileged few, but they are few and far between, and their graduation rates aren't any higher than those that have to put themselves through.

If you take that away, college becomes just 13th through 16th grade.
 
And this is where we have a massive departure in philosophy.

College should not be an entitlement, as liberals seem to think. A degree should MEAN something.

Having a degree doesn't tell someone that much about you, other than you had the initiative to start something difficult and see it through despite not getting paid during the process. I understand there are the privileged few, but they are few and far between, and their graduation rates aren't any higher than those that have to put themselves through.

If you take that away, college becomes just 13th through 16th grade.

College education is more of a necessity, though - than a privelege. A highschool diploma use to mean something but not highschool mostly readies you for college - NOT the real world with job-skills.

Education should be made available to all, even the ancient Greeks valued that - but graduation and the rounded degree should only be available to those who'v earned it.
I've heard quite a few students in my classes that are satisfied earning a C in their classes because they "can pass with that!" That doesn't mean they don't deserve the chance to GET a solid and well rounded education: but should they be given a diploma with crap-half effort? No.
 
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