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Thread: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    You seem to have plenty of time to hang around here for all the work you say you do.
    So I can't have a Thanksgiving break or post stuff on my phone? Geez. Anyways I don't see the dream as most see (or are told what the dream is supposed to be). My biggest dream is to own a ****load of stocks so I can make money just by betting on the right horses. I give it another 5 years until I do that, once I do I've met my dream.

    Also how did this thread turn into yet another discussion of why people shouldn't be on welfare like somebody actually associates that with the American dream?
    "We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy." -Reagan

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Says the guy with 17,000+ post.

    There is no doubt that there are many out there who work their butts off and still cannot afford to buy a house, let alone keep up with surmounting bills. Not everyone who makes less that 25,000K is a lazy welfare bum.
    And maybe some people aren't as busy as they say.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Competing with the Orman book is a book on much the same subject by Thom Hartmann.

    t r u t h o u t | Eleven Ways to Rebuild Our Country

    His books not only looks at the causes but proposes a series of solutions.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    We have much in common then as I worked midnights and weekends to pay for my education also.

    But I also realize that what worked for me may not work for all.
    And this is where we have a massive departure in philosophy.

    College should not be an entitlement, as liberals seem to think. A degree should MEAN something.

    Having a degree doesn't tell someone that much about you, other than you had the initiative to start something difficult and see it through despite not getting paid during the process. I understand there are the privileged few, but they are few and far between, and their graduation rates aren't any higher than those that have to put themselves through.

    If you take that away, college becomes just 13th through 16th grade.

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    And this is where we have a massive departure in philosophy.

    College should not be an entitlement, as liberals seem to think. A degree should MEAN something.

    Having a degree doesn't tell someone that much about you, other than you had the initiative to start something difficult and see it through despite not getting paid during the process. I understand there are the privileged few, but they are few and far between, and their graduation rates aren't any higher than those that have to put themselves through.

    If you take that away, college becomes just 13th through 16th grade.
    College education is more of a necessity, though - than a privelege. A highschool diploma use to mean something but not highschool mostly readies you for college - NOT the real world with job-skills.

    Education should be made available to all, even the ancient Greeks valued that - but graduation and the rounded degree should only be available to those who'v earned it.
    I've heard quite a few students in my classes that are satisfied earning a C in their classes because they "can pass with that!" That doesn't mean they don't deserve the chance to GET a solid and well rounded education: but should they be given a diploma with crap-half effort? No.
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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    College education is more of a necessity, though - than a privelege. A highschool diploma use to mean something but not highschool mostly readies you for college - NOT the real world with job-skills.

    Education should be made available to all, even the ancient Greeks valued that - but graduation and the rounded degree should only be available to those who'v earned it.
    I've heard quite a few students in my classes that are satisfied earning a C in their classes because they "can pass with that!" That doesn't mean they don't deserve the chance to GET a solid and well rounded education: but should they be given a diploma with crap-half effort? No.
    Millions of people function just fine without a college education. You're applying YOUR life's wants and needs to others.

    And it IS available to all people, at least those willing to work for it. There are winners, losers, and those in between. That's the way it should be, and it's he ONLY way a degree is worth anything anyway.

    If everyone was handed a degree, it wouldn't be worth a thing.

    Look at high school diplomas. I could train a monkey to get a high school diploma these days. Graduating from high school was an accomplishment in 1950. Now it's a certificate of participation.
    Last edited by Erod; 11-30-10 at 11:23 AM.

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Millions of people function just fine without a college education. You're applying YOUR life's wants and needs to others.

    And it IS available to all people, at least those willing to work for it. There are winners, losers, and those in between. That's the way it should be, and it's he ONLY way a degree is worth anything anyway.

    If everyone was handed a degree, it wouldn't be worth a thing.

    Look at high school diplomas. I could train a monkey to get a high school diploma these days. Graduating from high school was an accomplishment in 1950. Now it's a certificate of participation.
    So does that mean that - if someone changes their mind in life - they shouldn't be allowed to come back to college? If someone WANTS to go to college and they can't afford it then they should just be ok with their high-school diploma? Sounds great, sure - unless you consider that the average highschool graduate in this day and age is having a horrible time securing reasonable employment . . . thus leading to the overall inability to achieve that illusive 'American Dream' which this entire thread is about.

    I think you're undervaluing what a reasonable education can do for someone - even if they don't graduate.

    Right now enrollment in most schools is UP from the bracket of people who are returning or who, otherwise, are nontraditional students because *not* having a college degree of some type is BAD for them - not good. They might have been able to pull things off for a while - but when the economy went in the ****ter that paycheck to paycheck living was no longer working out.

    Or have you not been paying attention to the struggles of the working force in the last several years?
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 11-30-10 at 11:32 AM.
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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    So does that mean that - if someone changes their mind in life - they shouldn't be allowed to come back to college? If someone WANTS to go to college and they can't afford it then they should just be ok with their high-school diploma? Sounds great, sure - unless you consider that the average highschool graduate in this day and age is having a horrible time securing reasonable employment . . . thus leading to the overall inability to achieve that illusive 'American Dream' which this entire thread is about.

    I think you're undervaluing what a reasonable education can do for someone - even if they don't graduate.

    Right now enrollment in most schools is UP from the bracket of people who are returning or who, otherwise, are nontraditional students because *not* having a college degree of some type is BAD for them - not good. They might have been able to pull things off for a while - but when the economy went in the ****ter that paycheck to paycheck living was no longer working out.

    Or have you not been paying attention to the struggles of the working force in the last several years?
    You could not be more poor than I was when I went to college. Not possible. I worked in a grocery store and ate beans and rice through college. I paid my own way.

    And you know what? It really wasn't that bad because I wanted to do it. It paid off not only in the degree, but every time I need to knuckle down to accomplish something in life.

    In fact, though I'm someone of measurable means now, I am going to make my kids pay for their college, too. It was perhaps the most character-building experience of my life, and it has paid off a million-fold.

    You start letting just anyone who "kinda" wants to go to college in, and it will water down the system with people that simply have no serious business being there.

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    You could not be more poor than I was when I went to college. Not possible. I worked in a grocery store and ate beans and rice through college. I paid my own way.

    And you know what? It really wasn't that bad because I wanted to do it. It paid off not only in the degree, but every time I need to knuckle down to accomplish something in life.

    In fact, though I'm someone of measurable means now, I am going to make my kids pay for their college, too. It was perhaps the most character-building experience of my life, and it has paid off a million-fold.

    You start letting just anyone who "kinda" wants to go to college in, and it will water down the system with people that simply have no serious business being there.
    That's awesome. Obviously it meant a lot to you and was very important - and having been there and done that surely you see what I was referring to when I said that I believe a C average shouldn't net one a degree - for many it's just party-central. We all know this.
    But everyone should be given a chance to prove they can possibly handle it.

    No one's saying that such committment to your own education is wrong or a bad example. But, looking back, if you had some help wouldn't it have been nice? You worked your ass off - but I'm sure the occasional support would have been happily accepted by you.

    Help should be given to thsoe who've proven they're responsible enough to handle it and can stick with it.
    And, surely, that's how things *do go* - if a student is in with a FAFSA and they fail a course - they can lose their support.

    the cost of college, though, like everything else, has gone up considerably - for me to go to my school, not even full time, it costs me $5,000 out of pocket and the rest is covered by my husband's GI Bill - which he shed blood for.

    But someone being POOR shouldn't be a reason for them NOT to be given a solid education - are we wanting to improve our youth or not? Being IN college is more than just *covering the cost* - there's a considerable amount on the part of the student to make it through. Focusing more on the cost portion is undercutting all the other work that goes into it.

    IF someone doesn't really want to stick with the college program for 4 or 6 years - then they won't last that 4 or 6 years. Justl ike joining the military - you can sign up, doesn't mean you'll make it through boot camp.

    I have 4 kids - I'm maxed out with home, family and 4 classes and I'm pulling A's. . . I have it quite decent (financially) because my husband works hard and sacrificed a lot to get where he is.

    But for anyone to tell a poor but determined student that "you MUST pay your own damned way in" is just anti-American, in my opinion. . . and ensuring them that they won't EVER be able to achieve that "American Dream" at all.

    You're assuming that everyone lives in an area brimming with job opportunities - but I'm not. I'm not even attending a solid 4-year university. Merely a 2-year leg for right now. In a small town where every possible job is TAKEN. I'm sure - right now - there are quite a few deserving teens who aren't attending college because they can't manage transportation and other things. . . which is a shame.

    I'd like to improve our country - not make it so impossible to maintain that it just falls apart.
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 11-30-10 at 12:08 PM.
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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    So I can't have a Thanksgiving break or post stuff on my phone? Geez. Anyways I don't see the dream as most see (or are told what the dream is supposed to be). My biggest dream is to own a ****load of stocks so I can make money just by betting on the right horses. I give it another 5 years until I do that, once I do I've met my dream. Also how did this thread turn into yet another discussion of why people shouldn't be on welfare like somebody actually associates that with the American dream?
    Sounds like the kids my wife teaches, they don't need to study because they will be hired by their daddy in his shop, but the shop closed, or the kid who thinks he has the inside track to the NBA.
    I hope you have a backup plan....Wall Street is not a level playing field. I know full time stock brokers who are now old enough to retire, but can't, as they lost too much money in the market.
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