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Thread: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

  1. #41
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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Pay your house off.....don't pay your house off....it doesn't matter. Buying a home makes absolute sense.

    You can buy a home, pay on it for 20 years while raising your kids, then sell it for twice what you paid for it (as long as Obama leaves the capital gains tax alone under $500,000 for a couple), and pay cash for something smaller when the kids are gone. If you have a 401K and other savings accounts to go with your social security check, you'll be living quite comfortably.

    Unfortunately, many Americans don't have the basic discipline to accomplish that. They spend everything they earn with absolutely no plan, jump from job to job, drink/gamble/waste their money away, then cry to the government when they get caught with their pants down in the end.

    Suze caters to the lowest common denominator, and with the subprime loan market dried up, her idea of the "American Dream" dried up, too.
    I don't jump job-to-job.
    I save extensively
    I'm a savvy shopper
    I'm not addicted to unnecessary pleasures

    Still - buying this home was a mistake, keeping it is yet another mistake - but since it's depreciated in value and it needs more work - no one wants it.

    Your theory rests on the false idea that homes *only* appreciate with value. Homes, however, don't always appreciate in value - even in a good market many homes can LOSE value for reasons beyond your control and MANY people - even with both partners gainfully employed - can't afford a top-notch high-quality home in an area free of troubles that net this result.

    To run a bet for 20 or 30 years with only a hope that maybe it'll be profitable is horrible advise to give anyone and it's that same bull idea that led countless people to buy homes they *couldn't afford to keep* and then defaulted- a nd here we are.

    Other than the chance of maybe being profitable in 20 years - what does a home provide for you?
    Nothing.

    My parents did do that - they kept their house for just under 20 years - rented it out during that time to cover the payments for it - and they planned on selling it in 2010 when they knew that my Dad's stay in this state was up and he'd be relocated - so came along this years and they had no choice but to stick with their plan - they sold it and only netted one years pay in profit. Whoopie doodie.

    What ended up happening was NOT their careful crystal-globe plan and it did NOT work.

    If someone's american dream focuses ONLY on profiting and having a home and all that- they're fooling theirselves.
    There are other things in life MORE valuable than that.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    There is an issue here that most people are reluctant to talk about frankly and openly. But I will do so and throw caution to the wind.

    I have known many men in my family and outside of my family in the neighborhood where i grew up who were good and decent people. The had a job, had a house that they maintained well and paid their taxes on, had a family which they raised and provided for and were contributing members of the community. They were not exceptionally smart of even skilled people. Some of them were probably those who would be categorized as "dull normal" in IQ tests and never finished school, never read anything, and were less than intellectually inquisitive.

    There was lots of room for people like that in an agrarian economy. When we made the transition to a industrial economy, they made the move along with it. Because of the labor movement, they were able to get good factory jobs making good wages with good benefits. They were able to get married, have kids, buy a house and a new car every five or six years, take modest vacations once a year and generally provide and be productive. They could hold their head up high and live with dignity.

    Where is the place in the modern world for that person today? The American Dream has vanished for that person.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  3. #43
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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    There is an issue here that most people are reluctant to talk about frankly and openly. But I will do so and throw caution to the wind.

    I have known many men in my family and outside of my family in the neighborhood where i grew up who were good and decent people. The had a job, had a house that they maintained well and paid their taxes on, had a family which they raised and provided for and were contributing members of the community. They were not exceptionally smart of even skilled people. Some of them were probably those who would be categorized as "dull normal" in IQ tests and never finished school, never read anything, and were less than intellectually inquisitive.

    There was lots of room for people like that in an agrarian economy. When we made the transition to a industrial economy, they made the move along with it. Because of the labor movement, they were able to get good factory jobs making good wages with good benefits. They were able to get married, have kids, buy a house and a new car every five or six years, take modest vacations once a year and generally provide and be productive. They could hold their head up high and live with dignity.

    Where is the place in the modern world for that person today? The American Dream has vanished for that person.
    The place in the modern world for them is the same place they were before: average employment.
    Cashier, clerk, stocker, file clerk in the retail world which is vast. Manufacturer, producer, maintenance and upkeep in the manufacturing world. Server, cook in the fast food industry . . and laborer, farmhand - the list goes on and on.

    These average jobs are everywhere - a lot of our production is spread worldwide, now - which doesn't help. But that doesn't mean that these people *can't* find employment.

    part of the Agricultural and then Industrial revolution led to people relocating to follow the flow of jobs. *That* is one key essential factor that's gone. People are much less likely/able to relocate their selves or their families because those costs have gone up.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    The place in the modern world for them is the same place they were before: average employment.
    Cashier, clerk, stocker, file clerk in the retail world which is vast. Manufacturer, producer, maintenance and upkeep in the manufacturing world. Server, cook in the fast food industry . . and laborer, farmhand - the list goes on and on.

    These average jobs are everywhere - a lot of our production is spread worldwide, now - which doesn't help. But that doesn't mean that these people *can't* find employment.

    part of the Agricultural and then Industrial revolution led to people relocating to follow the flow of jobs. *That* is one key essential factor that's gone. People are much less likely/able to relocate their selves or their families because those costs have gone up.
    While some of that is true, it ignores that a very large segment of jobs that these folks could do have been outsourced in acts of economic treason by corporations. The type of jobs that you mention hardly compare with offering the same life style that blue collar manufacturing jobs offered. That is the point here in citing the death of the American Dream for those people.

    They now have to settle for saying "welcome to Wal Mart" or "do you want fries with that order" and settle for minimum wage or something perhaps 50% higher if they are lucky.

    They simply cannot live the same middle class life with that as their parents and others before them did. The American Dream has died for them.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    There is an issue here that most people are reluctant to talk about frankly and openly. But I will do so and throw caution to the wind.

    I have known many men in my family and outside of my family in the neighborhood where i grew up who were good and decent people. The had a job, had a house that they maintained well and paid their taxes on, had a family which they raised and provided for and were contributing members of the community. They were not exceptionally smart of even skilled people. Some of them were probably those who would be categorized as "dull normal" in IQ tests and never finished school, never read anything, and were less than intellectually inquisitive.

    There was lots of room for people like that in an agrarian economy. When we made the transition to a industrial economy, they made the move along with it. Because of the labor movement, they were able to get good factory jobs making good wages with good benefits. They were able to get married, have kids, buy a house and a new car every five or six years, take modest vacations once a year and generally provide and be productive. They could hold their head up high and live with dignity.

    Where is the place in the modern world for that person today? The American Dream has vanished for that person.
    The American Dream is not an entitlement simply because one is a decent person. The American Dream is earned. We all have to adapt to the world we live. It would be lunacy to argue that since someone's father was a typewriter salesman and made a nice life that his children can do the same in the same line of work.. times change, and people have to change with them.

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    While some of that is true, it ignores that a very large segment of jobs that these folks could do have been outsourced in acts of economic treason by corporations. The type of jobs that you mention hardly compare with offering the same life style that blue collar manufacturing jobs offered. That is the point here in citing the death of the American Dream for those people.
    Do you ever ask yourself why companies move jobs overseas? In many cases it is due to over-regulation and continued frivilious lawsuits. I know personally someone who shut down their manufacturing plant here and moved overseas.. the sole reason he did so was because he was sued every other day (not a single lawsuit of which held up) and his insurance costs to protect against this made it impossible to turn a profit.

    GE recently shut down a lightbulb plant because the government mandated that only certain kinds of lightbulbs may now be sold. This argument that companies move overseas due to "corporate treason" is absurd.

    They now have to settle for saying "welcome to Wal Mart" or "do you want fries with that order" and settle for minimum wage or something perhaps 50% higher if they are lucky.

    They simply cannot live the same middle class life with that as their parents and others before them did. The American Dream has died for them.
    What is wrong with that? They can work hard at it, work their way up to Manager and keep going from there.

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    While some of that is true, it ignores that a very large segment of jobs that these folks could do have been outsourced in acts of economic treason by corporations. The type of jobs that you mention hardly compare with offering the same life style that blue collar manufacturing jobs offered. That is the point here in citing the death of the American Dream for those people.

    They now have to settle for saying "welcome to Wal Mart" or "do you want fries with that order" and settle for minimum wage or something perhaps 50% higher if they are lucky.

    They simply cannot live the same middle class life with that as their parents and others before them did. The American Dream has died for them.
    What era or region of living are you talking about?

    I don't know anyone who was an average person who worked an average job and lived comfortably while supporting their family. Average employment has always meant barely making ends meet for many - often the hard work of both spouses was necessary to make ends meet without beig able to afford luxuries. And they definitely weren't making enough to live comfortably and to take an actual vacation.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    There is an issue here that most people are reluctant to talk about frankly and openly. But I will do so and throw caution to the wind.

    I have known many men in my family and outside of my family in the neighborhood where i grew up who were good and decent people. The had a job, had a house that they maintained well and paid their taxes on, had a family which they raised and provided for and were contributing members of the community. They were not exceptionally smart of even skilled people. Some of them were probably those who would be categorized as "dull normal" in IQ tests and never finished school, never read anything, and were less than intellectually inquisitive.

    There was lots of room for people like that in an agrarian economy. When we made the transition to a industrial economy, they made the move along with it. Because of the labor movement, they were able to get good factory jobs making good wages with good benefits. They were able to get married, have kids, buy a house and a new car every five or six years, take modest vacations once a year and generally provide and be productive. They could hold their head up high and live with dignity.

    Where is the place in the modern world for that person today? The American Dream has vanished for that person.
    Sure...we NEED the industrial base BACK. We are a service based economy. Until (or unless) those jobs return, there are still MANY decent paying jobs for hard working people. Not GREAT jobs...but still sufficient to provide.

    Now...since we are talking...how about the 20-30 million illegals here that are filling entry level, unskilled positions, construction jobs, etc?

    The solution is simple...but no one really wants to address the problems. It requires some brutal honesty.

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by NolaMan View Post
    The American Dream is not an entitlement simply because one is a decent person. The American Dream is earned. We all have to adapt to the world we live. It would be lunacy to argue that since someone's father was a typewriter salesman and made a nice life that his children can do the same in the same line of work.. times change, and people have to change with them.
    You are missing the point and perhaps it is my fault for not explaining it well. Allow me to try again.

    In most of the 20th century was been room in America for decent folks who wanted to work hard to be middle class productive citizens who could hold up their head in the community even if they were not the fastest or the brightest, or if they were not the most talented or skilled, or if they were not business owners or had inherited wealth. They could be less than average intelligence but still find middle class employment wages in manufacturing jobs which paid union wages and benefits.

    For many of those same folks today, that option is gone and nothing has replaced it for them.

    It is silly to tell them to go to college and become computer experts. It is silly to tell them to learn new skills for which they do not have the capacity or intelligence to do. If the average IQ is 100 - half the people are at or below that. We are fast becoming a society where there is no real productive place for that person. And if there is a place at all, its a far more lower paid and less dignified place that existed just a decade ago.

    I think that is what many people talk about when they are saying that the American Dream is dead for many for whom it was alive and well before.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    While some of that is true, it ignores that a very large segment of jobs that these folks could do have been outsourced in acts of economic treason by corporations. The type of jobs that you mention hardly compare with offering the same life style that blue collar manufacturing jobs offered. That is the point here in citing the death of the American Dream for those people.

    They now have to settle for saying "welcome to Wal Mart" or "do you want fries with that order" and settle for minimum wage or something perhaps 50% higher if they are lucky.

    They simply cannot live the same middle class life with that as their parents and others before them did. The American Dream has died for them.
    Let me give you an American dream success story...Joe Schmoe takes a job at Taco Bell. He proves after about 2 weeks to be a trustworthy and hard worker (and in the meantime...joe works weekends at the 7-11...dude is going to make this work). He is promoted to a shift manager...not great pay...but some bennies...and yes...he still has to work 2 jobs...no one said this was going to be easy. Lss than 6 months later he is asked if he is interested in training with Pepsico to be an assistant store manager. not great pay...but promoted to 26.5 salary (about 5 k less than average in the community...still has that second job. Less than 2 years later he gets his own corporate store...36k. Does a great job...now he is an RGM...5 years later he works out of his home office and only occasionally stops by the three stores he manages.

    EVERY situation? Nope...but it happens all the time. As long as we are living in a service based economy...you better understand the game and know how to play. it helps if you talk to people that can help. But we see people like this every day.

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