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Thread: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    I have no problem with different paths, as long as the goals are clear and standards are met. We lived for a few years in a small town in Idaho, with mostly farmers on the school board, and an exjock as superintendent. Standards were low in academics, but high in sports...
    Parental expectations, IMO, is the primary issue that frustrates good teachers. When the student CAN, but won't, and parents won't get involved, what can you do?
    Bingo.

    Kids generally meet the demands of their parents, although not always quietly without rebuttal. Too many parents spend their time explaining away their kids' failures, instead of using that failure as a template for what to work on next.

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    from Erod



    That is a great story - thanks for sharing it. Its amazing how similar our lives were. But I did not go to my graduation for college since I knew I was going on to a Masters and it did not mean that much to me. No ring either.... but I did get a different kind of ring that same summer and treasure that.

    btw - I do not consider myself liberal. I eschew labels. I do admit that many of my views are on the left side of what others would call a progressive. But I also take some conservative positions on some issues. I really do not like the idea that we are like butterflies with pins in us and there is some label underneath identifying us to the world. But thats just me.
    I don't consider "conservative" as a label as much as just a general state of common sense and personal responsibility. Perhaps I don't share your optimism with people in general. Call that cynical, but I don't see much work ethic or positive intent in a lot of people these days. Just look at our elected officials. Look at what people look up to. I was in New York a couple weeks ago, and people in general there are just a-holes. Uncaring, self-absorbed, rude a-holes.

    Core values are lost these days on a disturbing percentage of the populace.

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by NolaMan View Post
    I have found that in the majority of cases (certainly with exceptions) being intelligent goes a long way in helping you get "rich." Many "rich" people will tell you that education is one of the most important things.
    Our daughter, Bachelors in Economics, tells me I have an abundance of useless knowledge. Times change, I guess SOME or our knowledge no longer has value...
    Oracle of Utah
    Truth rings hollow in empty heads.

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    from Utah Bill

    I have no problem with different paths, as long as the goals are clear and standards are met.
    Here is the real problem that does not make for a good four word slogan on a bumper sticker or can be adopted as a catch phrase by a politician: we have gotten caught up in the game of comparing the scores of American students on standardized tests to those of students from other nations on standardized tests. And when some American kids fall behind some foreign children, we panic and demand that American schools "measure up".

    Go and study Japanese schools. I did. Japan has one school system. One. Every public school kid across Japan learns the same thing from the same curriculum at the same time in the same grade regardless of what public school they attend. This is true if they attend in Hiroshima or Tokyo, Okinawa or Sapporo. Teachers do not spend time on lesson plans or tests. All this is provided for by the central office in Tokyo. When it is time for standardized tests, the students tend to do well because everything on the curriculum and on the standardized tests have been dovetailed together seamlessly. That is also the rule in many other nations.

    The opposite is the way we do things here in America. But we still want to compare test scores and cry when we come up short.

    There is a price we pay for local control of local schools. We need to face that and we need to have a discussion if it is worth that price.
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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    You know how Jay Leno does that thing where he asks people on the streets to identify people in pictures, and they can Jessica Simpson, but not Joe Biden? While funny, it also makes my stomach sink.

    I think the biggest issue is the lack of parenting within the home. My dad scared the crap out of us at home about our grades. You brought home a C, especially in something that required basic study discipline like history or health, and your next six weeks were going to be pure hell.

    Nowdays, it seems most parents don't even care enough to look at a report card, and if their kid gets held back, they picket the school.
    That sort of household culture works for certain children while other techniques work for others. For example one of my kids sees his intellect (which is formidable to the point where the county wants to skip him a few grades) as attached to his self esteem. This causes him to seek out new knowledge continually.

    My other kid has realized that knowing stuff allows him to do more stuff (which is an amazing thing for a 6 yearold to figure out) and that it is his motivation.

    Alternatively, I know families that have a culture like you describe and all it does is to serve to demotivate the children and stress them out.

    I think the best method is an unspoken understanding within the family unit that knowing stuff is important as children emulate what we do, not what we say. Then, whatever conscious actions you layer on top of it can futher help with that or hinder it.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 11-30-10 at 01:37 PM.

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    That sort of household culture works for certain children while other techniques work for others. For example one of my kids sees his intellect (which is formidable to the point where the county wants to skip him a few grades) as attached to his self esteem. This causes him to seek out new knowledge continually.

    My other kid has realized that knowing stuff allows him to do more stuff (which is an amazing thing for a 6 yearold to figure out) and that it is his motivation.

    Alternatively, I know families that have a culture like you describe and all it does is to serve to demotivate the children and stress them out.

    I think the best method is an unspoken understanding within the family unit that knowing stuff is important as children emulate what we do, not what we say. Then, whatever conscious actions you layer on top of it can futher help with that or hinder it.
    Perhaps I overstated. We had a loving father, but he just didn't tolerate laziness. I made him sound like a brute.

    But I mean, how do you fail history if you put half an effort into it? That was his point. A lot of parents - a LOT of parents - simply dont give a rip.

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Perhaps I overstated. We had a loving father, but he just didn't tolerate laziness. I made him sound like a brute.

    But I mean, how do you fail history if you put half an effort into it? That was his point. A lot of parents - a LOT of parents - simply dont give a rip.
    My child just brought home a straight A report card and we took him to the restaurant of his choice as a result (which turned out to be McDonalds), however, we rarely mention school performance as a family. The kids just know, by the expressions in our faces, whether it is joy or dissapointment, what we are happy or not happy about, what we expect. There is no punishment because there doesn't need to be. Secretly, even though they protest much and often, kids tend to want to be on good terms with their parents.

    For example, there are times where our kids misbehave and have decided that they are going to do so no matter how much we punish them or how harsh the punishment is. But the moment my wife gets frustrated and simply asks the kids to behave in a heartfelt manner, they always snap to and be good children again (until next time of course, but thats parenthood for you). When there is love, there is motivation.

    That was my point.

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Maybe it is because North Dakota is doing good....but I feel very much in line with the American dream. It's not coming without struggles, but I need to be optimistic.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    from Utah Bill



    Here is the real problem that does not make for a good four word slogan on a bumper sticker or can be adopted as a catch phrase by a politician: we have gotten caught up in the game of comparing the scores of American students on standardized tests to those of students from other nations on standardized tests. And when some American kids fall behind some foreign children, we panic and demand that American schools "measure up".

    Go and study Japanese schools. I did. Japan has one school system. One. Every public school kid across Japan learns the same thing from the same curriculum at the same time in the same grade regardless of what public school they attend. This is true if they attend in Hiroshima or Tokyo, Okinawa or Sapporo. Teachers do not spend time on lesson plans or tests. All this is provided for by the central office in Tokyo. When it is time for standardized tests, the students tend to do well because everything on the curriculum and on the standardized tests have been dovetailed together seamlessly. That is also the rule in many other nations.

    The opposite is the way we do things here in America. But we still want to compare test scores and cry when we come up short.

    There is a price we pay for local control of local schools. We need to face that and we need to have a discussion if it is worth that price.
    But you can't compare a tiny (land-mass wise) country with basically an indigenous poplulation to the multiple environments in America.

    The school district in Laredo, Texas, is entirely different than in D.C. or Omaha or Mobile. The one-size-fits-all approach just dumbs it all down.

    I laugh at the TAKS tests in Texas. In south Dallas, they complain that it's way too demanding and unfair, while my kids and their friends outside the city ace it like it's nothing. You should see how ridiculously easy the test is.

    School shouldn't be run by the federal government. Communities know best what their specific kids needs are.
    Last edited by Erod; 11-30-10 at 01:54 PM.

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    Re: Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    But you can't compare a tiny (land-mass wise) country with basically an indigenous poplulation to the multiple environments in America.

    The school district in Laredo, Texas, is entirely different than in D.C. or Omaha or Mobile. The one-size-fits-all approach just dumbs it all down.

    I laugh at the TAKS tests in Texas. In south Dallas, they complain that it's way too demanding and unfair, while my kids and their friends outside the city ace it like it's nothing. You should see how ridiculously easy the test is.

    School shouldn't be run by the federal government. Communities know best what they're specific kids needs.
    You cannot have it both ways. There is a price to pay for local systems and local control and we are paying it. Japan is a very populated nation of 127 million people and tens of millions of students. I really don't see the geography as an issue here in what curriculum and standards schools will have.

    To be really ones with you, right wing paranoia about the federal government running schools is a serious obstacle to true educational reform.
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