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Thread: Were the Bush Tax Cuts Good for Growth?

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    Re: Were the Bush Tax Cuts Good for Growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    The rich exist to relieve the poor of their financial burdens.
    I disagree. We tax the rich to help the poor and stabilize society, but that is not why they exist. Their existence is a result of human nature. However, this lack of purpose does not make taxation unjust.

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    Re: Were the Bush Tax Cuts Good for Growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    what do the poor pay in return for such grand service?

    Because the rich are so gracious as to allow them to eat cake.

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    Re: Were the Bush Tax Cuts Good for Growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    My take on why the 2000's had such low growth coming out of the recession


    High personal debt levels for the middle class, an expanding trade deficit, and concentration of wealth at the highest levels being the primary factors


    High personal debt prevents savings and investing by the middle class in most cases, and it limits consumption that would spur economic growth. Alan Greenspan encouraged Americans in the early 2000s to take out home equity loans to further consumption as a means to spur economic activity.

    The trade deficit, money leaving the US for goods and services is of course money that is not going to be used to create economic activity in the US.

    Last but not least, and does partially explain why the Bush Tax cuts for the wealthy did not produce noticable results. Wealth has been concentrating in the hands of the wealthy for the last few decades, and dramatically so in the last couple. There is a realistic limit to the consumption a person can do (unless the very wealthy all want to build billion dollar homes like one of the owners of Reliance in India has done). This then requires them to make investments to spur economic growth, but they are not required to make investments that will produce productive jobs in the US. If they are not investing in projects that produce productive jobs in the US, or consume more that will create jobs as well, then the tax cuts will not spur on economic growth in the US
    You're the FIRST person to give an honest, straight-forward, reasonable answer to this controversial question.

    Thanks! I don't know why it's been so difficult for Conservatives to just tell it straight instead of spouting some obscure platitude, i.e., "correlation =/= causation". Furthermore, if you're going to make the claim that varying events affected the effectiveness of the Bush tax cuts, then my question then is "Why didn't the Bush-43 administration work to modify the cuts based on what was happening within the nation's economy? The way I see it, his administration dropped the ball here just as they did w/the War on Terror. They took their eye off the ball - twice!

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Argue against a flat tax. We who pay most of the taxes tire of dems buying votes by calling for our taxes-and our taxes alone to go up and up and up when we get no additional benefits for paying more and more and more
    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    democrats gain power by spending our money on their voters. If the dems were to cut social spending they would lose their power to buy the votes of those who get more from government spending than they pay in taxes. SInce the dems won't cut their own throats, we have to cut taxes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    When democrats support policies, it's buying votes, when republicans support policy, it's not. This is one of those retarded whines that people keep making because it's easy and requires no real thought to formulate, but never understand why it doesn't get taken seriously by any one else except those others on the extreme.
    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    rich people don't exist for the purpose of funding your socialist dreams. and the fact is states with high taxes are losing wealthy tax payers. and when Sweden had massive taxes, most of their star athletes moved to monte carlo. SO you can attack me personally because you are jealous and ignore the point I was making which had nothing to do with me personally
    Let's talk about tax increases for a moment...

    Since 1961, only one Democrat President - Clinton - dared to raise taxes and he did so only on the wealthiest 1.2% of Americans. He also cut spending by over $200 billion and had the longest period of economic growth in this nation's history. In fact, only Kennedy and Clinton, two Democrat presidents, remain the only U.S. Presidents to spur long-term economic growth over the last 50 years. Kennedy did so by creating NASA and fully engaging the nation in the Space Race. Clinton did so by deregulating the banking, investment, securities and insurance industries and used housing to invest in growth. (See Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act) To a large degree it worked. Except for the lack of regulatory oversight, Clinton's initiatives (though controversial) did reduce the deficit. However, ultimately what Clinton tore apart eventually set the nation on a path to the very economic turmoil we're dealing with now. Still, his administration dealt with the mini-banking collapse of 1998. (See Long-term capital investments) It's just too bad we didn't carry forward those lessons learned from 1998 into 2008. Our economy could have been spared at best by government oversight and at worse by duplicating the collaborative efforts within the private banking sector as was done in 1998.

    As for political parties curring votes, both sides do it. Republicans think they have the military voting bloc on lock along with the wealthy and the elderly while Democrat mostly get the youth movement, minorities and a vast majority of the middle-class. Both have used various segments of the population - sometimes catering to inner-locking segments, i.e., Independents, to sway votes their way. So, to claim that only those who seek "entitlements" only vote Democrat is like saying everyone who has ever served in the military - active duty, reserves and retired - all vote Republican. Very untrue. Former military here. I generally vote Democrat but I've never voted a straight-party ticket. If I believe a candidate worthy of my vote regardless of party affiliation, he/she will get my vote.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 11-21-10 at 08:19 PM.

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    Re: Were the Bush Tax Cuts Good for Growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I disagree. We tax the rich to help the poor and stabilize society, but that is not why they exist. Their existence is a result of human nature. However, this lack of purpose does not make taxation unjust.

    The poor pay taxes too. And they pay more in relation to their buying power.

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    Re: Were the Bush Tax Cuts Good for Growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    The poor pay taxes too. And they pay more in relation to their buying power.
    This is true. A flat tax would be very regressive and harmful.

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    Re: Were the Bush Tax Cuts Good for Growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    The poor pay taxes too. And they pay more in relation to their buying power.
    so what-they use far more than they pay



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    Re: Were the Bush Tax Cuts Good for Growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    This is true. A flat tax would be very regressive and harmful.
    it would be very harmful to the politicians who gain so much power by pitting net tax consumers against net tax payers by buying the votes of the many by engaging in tax hikes only on the top brackets



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    Re: Were the Bush Tax Cuts Good for Growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    what do the poor pay in return for such grand service?
    They stay in their own neighborhoods.

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    Re: Were the Bush Tax Cuts Good for Growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Because the rich are so gracious as to allow them to eat cake.
    Damn no wonder the obesity problem is so high in poor neighborhoods



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    Re: Were the Bush Tax Cuts Good for Growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    I think the information regarding Ireland needs to be seriously updated
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    uh - we live in the USA - not Ireland and as others have said, Ireland is in deep doodoo right now.

    Second, lets see the stats that prove that tax cuts lead to more jobs right here in the good old USA. That is the mantra we hear constantly from the right that if we give the rich more money to keep then they will create more jobs for the poor slobs underneath them. So lets see that please.
    Right now, Ireland is in trouble. I never once claimed that tax cuts are the be all, end all to economic recovery...I've been very careful about that. I have stated that they help to promote growth by not decreasing private capital. But private capital isn't the entirety of the economic formula. If you go back to the article I posted, it talks about how government spending is a factor, but private spending is roughly 2/3's of the economic equation. If you reduce government income in favor of private capital, you have a potential positive increase of 30%....but that increase is over and above what would have happened.If the economy is going down, tax policy can slow or reverse but you can't just cut taxes and expect 5% growth. Regardless of tax policy, consumers will behave according to their projections. If you cut some one's taxes, but they lose their job, they still don't have money to spend.

    Good fiscal policy taxes less desirable behavior (i.e. imports), rewards desirable results (i.e. job creation and exports) and works with the forces associated with capitalism rather than against (Cap and Trade would be an example of working against).
    Last edited by ksu_aviator; 11-21-10 at 08:56 PM.
    You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

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