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Thread: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

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    Re: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The trick would be to show that one caused the other. How many other factors were involved?
    I just meant to show that cutting taxes doesn't always mean reducing tax revenue. Cutting taxes does, indeed, have a positive influence on the expansion of business. When businesses expand, jobs are created and the economy grows. When there are more jobs, there are more people paying taxes.

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    Re: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    I just meant to show that cutting taxes doesn't always mean reducing tax revenue. Cutting taxes does, indeed, have a positive influence on the expansion of business. When businesses expand, jobs are created and the economy grows. When there are more jobs, there are more people paying taxes.
    I find you to be a reasonable fellow, so I mean this to also be reasonable. But I'm not sure minor tax changes have that much effect at all. Historically we've done well with a high tax rate and with low tax rate. And wasn't just a study that showed tax cuts wouldn't effect the job market at all?

    It gets kind of tricky sorting though this, as there are so many factors that influence business and economic success. So, while I agree more people working increase revenues, I doubt tax cuts play a significant role in creating jobs.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I find you to be a reasonable fellow, so I mean this to also be reasonable. But I'm not sure minor tax changes have that much effect at all. Historically we've done well with a high tax rate and with low tax rate. And wasn't just a study that showed tax cuts wouldn't effect the job market at all?

    It gets kind of tricky sorting though this, as there are so many factors that influence business and economic success. So, while I agree more people working increase revenues, I doubt tax cuts play a significant role in creating jobs.
    You're forgetting how much we are all forced to pay in taxes, both businesses and individuals. We pay a payroll tax, our employer pays an additional payroll tax on top of that, plus all of their taxes and fees required by the government. When you walk out your door, you're bound to pay taxes at least a hundred times a day.

    If government were naturally capable of managing our tax money wisely, then perhaps we wouldn't have such discontent over the issue. Instead, our government wastes so much of our money, that we wonder if we could have done a better job. We should be empowered to control our finances and our own future.
    Last edited by Mensch; 11-22-10 at 07:01 PM.

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    Re: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    You're forgetting how much we are all forced to pay in taxes, both businesses and individuals. We pay a payroll tax, our employer pays an additional payroll tax on top of that, plus all of their taxes and fees required by the government. When you walk out your door, you're bound to pay taxes at least a hundred times a day.
    I don't think I'm forgetting that at all. Dispite this, people still work and people still hire, and have done so historically regardless of the tax rate. When the economy is bad, it doesn't magically get better with a tax cut. Instead, other factors have to fall into place before business expands, including a higher demand. Money ahs to be available at the bottom, or no amount of tax cut at the top will encourage expansion.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

    Boo Radley;1059116454]
    If something was really neccssary, both would actually argue for it. WWII was actually neccessary, there was a nation that attacked us, another that had already declared war against us, there was no doubt about any of it. SInce then there has not been enough to even warrant a declaration of war, and that is the problem. It is war with too little reason for war.
    Was it necessary? What about WWI? There were many at that time, before, during and after these wars who wanted America to be isolationist. I certainly don't know why the United States was involved in WWI, nor Canada or any non-European nations.

    But if any President starts a war, and the Congress agrees, then his successor should support that decision. That includes during election campaigns also. A house divided cannot stand and right now America is certainly a house divided.
    I can't help what you believe, but I can link a defintion of the word if you think that would help. And I know of both those things, but it doesn't change what would have been required to pacify VN. It would have required killing in numbers large enough to amount to genocide.
    "Killing in numbers large enough to amount to genocide" is not genocide. And as the United States was also supporting the Vietnamese people the idea of any "genocide" at all doesn't make any sense whatsoever.l

    Or perhaps some are just too willing to accept any justification. When we left VN, America went right along, and didn't fall to communism, as there was never any threeat to this country from VN.
    I can't seem to make sense of this. Are you saying Vietnam didn't fall to the Communists?
    Castro existed so close to this country, and yet we didn't fall.
    I've never heard of anyone claiming that merica might fall because of Fidel Castro. Who has ever made that argument?

    No war was required, and only real show of streangth, and we were fine.
    The only "show of strength" with Cuba, as i recall, was the Bay Of Pigs.

    War isn't magic, and isn't always necessary. And while it is SOMETIMES necessary, there should be strong evidence that it is exactly that, NECESSARY. Vitenam was not, and history shows that clearly. And Iraq was not, and that too is pretty damn clear.
    Whether it was necessary or not, in your mind, a huge majority of the elected officials in the American government felt otherwise. Those involved on the ground feel otherwise also. The choice seems quite clear. You support your government, and thus your country, or you support the enemy. I think we all know the position your enemies would hope for.
    Last edited by Grant; 11-22-10 at 07:13 PM.

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    Re: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I don't think I'm forgetting that at all. Dispite this, people still work and people still hire, and have done so historically regardless of the tax rate. When the economy is bad, it doesn't magically get better with a tax cut. Instead, other factors have to fall into place before business expands, including a higher demand. Money ahs to be available at the bottom, or no amount of tax cut at the top will encourage expansion.
    My whole argument is that money should be available at the bottom. Taxes are monies being taken from the bottom and given to the top, to be dispersed as a group of powerful individuals see fit.

    And of course jobs can be created when tax rates are high. But there's no doubt that if a business must pay x number of dollars to the government, it ultimately means that money is taken out of their budget. It increases their overhead costs. And large overhead costs doesn't exactly send a signal to enlarge the business.

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    Re: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    My whole argument is that money should be available at the bottom. Taxes are monies being taken from the bottom and given to the top, to be dispersed as a group of powerful individuals see fit.

    And of course jobs can be created when tax rates are high. But there's no doubt that if a business must pay x number of dollars to the government, it ultimately means that money is taken out of their budget. It increases their overhead costs. And large overhead costs doesn't exactly send a signal to enlarge the business.
    I have no problem with cutting taxes for working people at the bottom. And I think there are some business taxes that can be lessened. But taxes with those at the top end of the specturm generally don't trickle down at all. They neither go to hire people or to spend. So, I'm doubtful that taxes should be reduced at the top end.

    I'm not even sure tax cuts at the lower end actually do anything, as the amount is so small as to matter much. I just have no objection to it.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

    [QUOTE=Grant;1059116528]
    Was it necessary? What about WWI? There were many at that time, before, during and after these wars who wanted America to be isolationist. I certainly don't know why the United States was involved in WWI, nor Canada or any non-European nations.

    But if any President starts a war, and the Congress agrees, then his successor should support that decision. That includes during election campaigns also. A house divided cannot stand and right now America is certainly a house divided.
    You'll notice those two were declared wars, and not just presidental choice, meaning congress had to stand accountable. They are much more likley to have a very good reason when they have to declare war than when they just pass the buck to the president. I think this is whyn our founding fathers put that power in congress.


    "Killing in numbers large enough to amount to genocide" is not genocide. And as the United States was also supporting the Vietnamese people the idea of any "genocide" at all doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
    Perhaps it is because you think we were representing the Vietnamese people. One of the reasons they were able to fight us so well was because we did not have the support of the vietnamese people. So, you would have to kill large numbers of the people in order to win. We were never goign to do that, nor should we.



    I can't seem to make sense of this. Are you saying Vietnam didn't fall to the Communists?
    No, I'm saying we didn't. They falling wasn't and isn't a threat to us. Never was.


    I've never heard of anyone claiming that merica might fall because of Fidel Castro. Who has ever made that argument?
    No one I know of, but if someone that close to us wasn't a threat, how can you argue a communist VN was?

    The only "show of strength" with Cuba, as i recall, was the Bay Of Pigs.
    Think missle crisis.



    Whether it was necessary or not, in your mind, a huge majority of the elected officials in the American government felt otherwise. Those involved on the ground feel otherwise also. The choice seems quite clear. You support your government, and thus your country, or you support the enemy. I think we all know the position your enemies would hope for.
    No, I don't think they did. We ahd the fever, and some capitalised on that fever, and congress, seeing the writing on the wall when those who objected lost their seats, simply passed the buck to the president. But many in doing so argued that Saddam was not at that level.

    And no, you should support your government only when they earn it, I believe someone once said. Blind obediance is something more asked for in a communist country than in a free country.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I have no problem with cutting taxes for working people at the bottom. And I think there are some business taxes that can be lessened. But taxes with those at the top end of the specturm generally don't trickle down at all. They neither go to hire people or to spend. So, I'm doubtful that taxes should be reduced at the top end.

    I'm not even sure tax cuts at the lower end actually do anything, as the amount is so small as to matter much. I just have no objection to it.
    So, allowing people to retain the money that they earned doesn't do anything, but giving it to the feds actually promotes prosperity?

    How can you say for certain that cutting taxes on the wealthiest of Americans doesn't do anything? Businesses tend to expand when the owners have more money to spend.

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    Re: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    So, allowing people to retain the money that they earned doesn't do anything, but giving it to the feds actually promotes prosperity?

    How can you say for certain that cutting taxes on the wealthiest of Americans doesn't do anything? Businesses tend to expand when the owners have more money to spend.
    Not much. I doubt I would even notice the increaseor the decrease. I didn't notice the Bush tax cuts. I spent no more and no less than I would have otherwise.

    And people do study the spending habits of all groups of people, and studies that have been psoted on these htreads here show that the wealthy simply don't spend the money they get from tax cuts. So, what supports the notion that they do?

    As for giving it to the feds, there is that deficit thingie to worry about. If the government is going to spend, they should have the revenue to pay for it. So, while I also think we should cut spending, it is just as important to increase revenue, increase taxes.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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