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Thread: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

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    Re: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

    rediculous them plans are gonna cost everyone a fortune those who cant afford who do u think is paying for it,,,we r.....who gets rich ...insurances companys...employers are gearing up now all loophole ...part time employees...no hiring...etc. etc... spend money like its out of controll,,,hasnt even tried to start to save money or stop spending....its just the begining of his plans....bigger government more gov jobe more welfare ...they want us to need them ..so they can control us...look how different obama speaks ,looks acts sinc repubs have some say now.... he is a clown clearly ...wants to control you me and everyone youy know...

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    Re: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Moore was the story he told, so when he says the moral of the story, he is mentioning Moore.
    Whatever. But look to the moral, ok??
    Now, as for VN, I was alive then. And I've actually been involved in formal study of the war. Winning would have required something amounting to genocide, as it wasn't about taking territory or anything traditional. We shouldn't have been involved in the first place, had no clear or justifiable reason for being there, and a free society just isn't going to support that type of war for very long. Better to not involve our self in such conflicts and not just bl;ame others for our recklessness.
    But America did get involved and then self defeated. That's the moral and the lesson. You can throw around terms like "genocide", which are meaningless, when in fact it was the fifth column that led to the defeat. The military could have easily won.
    And I would say you and the orginal poster really haven't learned the actual lesson. Sadly.
    And what do you feel was the actual lesson? Don't get into a war??

    A great idea, but once in you have to win. That is the entire lesson..

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    Re: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

    If WINNING means TOTALLY DESTROYING, then we have already lost.
    __________________________________________________ _
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    Re: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Whatever. But look to the moral, ok??


    But America did get involved and then self defeated. That's the moral and the lesson. You can throw around terms like "genocide", which are meaningless, when in fact it was the fifth column that led to the defeat. The military could have easily won.


    And what do you feel was the actual lesson? Don't get into a war??

    A great idea, but once in you have to win. That is the entire lesson..
    But the the trouble was the getting involved. That's the lesson we should ahve learned. When you aks people to die in a democracy, where people have a voice, you have to make sure the reasons are compelling. You can't just be imperialistic and seek to do whatever you want. people will object sooner or later. And the more freedom you have, the less you can control the facts, and this will always lead to someone questioning the reasons behind the war.

    And no, genocide wasn't a meaningless term here. You would have had to kill most the population. I challenge you to put aside what you've heard and look at exactly how much we dropped on VN. The number of sorties and bombings were large, and certainly not something to be seen as not fighting the war. The fact was the people there wanted their own government, not ours and were going to fight. Winning, as you define it, required more than we would ever be willing to do. And you will never see this type of action be maintained in a free society.

    We need to stop looking at these things like a football game, and more like something that is serious and requires greeat thought and reluctance to get involved in. We need to assure good reasoning and sound justification before we ever ask Americans to die over there, where ever over there is. We failed once again to do this, and had similar results. It is being reckless and too eagar to jump into something that can't be properly justified that has hurt us and not people like Moore or the press.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

    [QUOTE=Boo Radley;1059116065]
    But the the trouble was the getting involved. That's the lesson we should ahve learned. When you aks people to die in a democracy, where people have a voice, you have to make sure the reasons are compelling. You can't just be imperialistic and seek to do whatever you want. people will object sooner or later. And the more freedom you have, the less you can control the facts, and this will always lead to someone questioning the reasons behind the war.
    What's happened in practice is that one President feels it''s necessary and the next will campaign that it is unnecessary. There is no ongoing commitment to winning once the decision is made and everyone knows that. Thus your enemies will just wait you out. The United States is weaker since Vietnam, that's common knowledge, and the US will be weaker and ineffective everywhere. I think it's a damned shame myself and would have preferred more support for the American initiative but other leaders naturally preferred that the Americans do the bulk of the work, And they did.

    At one time wars were fought to be won, but now US leadership is always publicly discussing "withdrawal", an unthinkable idea not all that long ago. In fact it was never spoken prior to Vietnam.

    And no, genocide wasn't a meaningless term here. You would have had to kill most the population. I challenge you to put aside what you've heard and look at exactly how much we dropped on VN. The number of sorties and bombings were large, and certainly not something to be seen as not fighting the war. The fact was the people there wanted their own government, not ours and were going to fight. Winning, as you define it, required more than we would ever be willing to do. And you will never see this type of action be maintained in a free society.
    I don't believe you''ve actually studied anything of the war and your loosely defined use term of "genocide" suggests as much.. Keep in mind it was the Communists who came closest to committing actual genocide, as you would know if you were aware of the "Boat people" and the 're-education camps'. They behaved like Communists everywhere.
    We need to stop looking at these things like a football game, and more like something that is serious and requires greeat thought and reluctance to get involved in. We need to assure good reasoning and sound justification before we ever ask Americans to die over there, where ever over there is. We failed once again to do this, and had similar results. It is being reckless and too eagar to jump into something that can't be properly justified that has hurt us and not people like Moore or the press.
    No matter what America does, or how much any war might be justified and essential to American security, the Fifth Columnists at home will undermine it. That attitude can be traced directly back to Vietnam. When Americans start attacking their own President and defending Saddam Hussein and Fidel Castro, or any number of international despots, they're on a losing track. Who will take America's place is still open to question, but I doubt the world will be a more secure place without US leadership.

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    Re: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

    Grant
    A serious question for you. How much actual contact did you have with the American anti-war movement during the Viet Nam period?
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    Re: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Grant
    A serious question for you. How much actual contact did you have with the American anti-war movement during the Viet Nam period?
    None. I supported the American troops, not the Communists.

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    Re: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post

    What's happened in practice is that one President feels it''s necessary and the next will campaign that it is unnecessary. There is no ongoing commitment to winning once the decision is made and everyone knows that. Thus your enemies will just wait you out. The United States is weaker since Vietnam, that's common knowledge, and the US will be weaker and ineffective everywhere. I think it's a damned shame myself and would have preferred more support for the American initiative but other leaders naturally preferred that the Americans do the bulk of the work, And they did.

    At one time wars were fought to be won, but now US leadership is always publicly discussing "withdrawal", an unthinkable idea not all that long ago. In fact it was never spoken prior to Vietnam.
    If something was really neccssary, both would actually argue for it. WWII was actually neccessary, there was a nation that attacked us, another that had already declared war against us, there was no doubt about any of it. SInce then there has not been enough to even warrant a declaration of war, and that is the problem. It is war with too little reason for war.



    I don't believe you''ve actually studied anything of the war and your loosely defined use term of "genocide" suggests as much.. Keep in mind it was the Communists who came closest to committing actual genocide, as you would know if you were aware of the "Boat people" and the 're-education camps'. They behaved like Communists everywhere.
    I can't help what you believe, but I can link a defintion of the word if you think that would help. And I know of both those things, but it doesn't change what would have been required to pacify VN. It would have required killing in numbers large enough to amount to genocide.


    No matter what America does, or how much any war might be justified and essential to American security, the Fifth Columnists at home will undermine it. That attitude can be traced directly back to Vietnam. When Americans start attacking their own President and defending Saddam Hussein and Fidel Castro, or any number of international despots, they're on a losing track. Who will take America's place is still open to question, but I doubt the world will be a more secure place without US leadership.
    Or perhaps some are just too willing to accept any justification. When we left VN, America went right along, and didn't fall to communism, as there was never any threeat to this country from VN. Castro existed so close to this country, and yet we didn't fall. No war was required, and only real show of streangth, and we were fine.

    War isn't magic, and isn't always necessary. And while it is SOMETIMES necessary, there should be strong evidence that it is exactly that, NECESSARY. Vitenam was not, and history shows that clearly. And Iraq was not, and that too is pretty damn clear.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Cutting taxes at our current tax levels reduces tax revenue. Period.
    Reagan cut taxes and somehow tax revenue expanded. Imagine that!

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    Re: Great Michael Moore advice to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    Reagan cut taxes and somehow tax revenue expanded. Imagine that!
    The trick would be to show that one caused the other. How many other factors were involved?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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