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Thread: Sexual assault in airports

  1. #21
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    Re: Sexual assault in airports

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    Doesn't mean that things don't happen though
    Also, this is a strawman. Rudeness from TSA occurs with the same frequency that it occurs in other professions. Actually, I bet TSA is considerably less rude than a lot of professions in that they are constantly dealing with adults who won't hesitate to report them and publicize these occurrances. They also get a ton of training in customer interactions.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 11-08-10 at 10:35 AM.

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    Re: Sexual assault in airports

    I have had bad experiences with TSA, but it was more inconvenient than rude. In actuality it was not even the TSA but the rules they had to follow depending on the airport.

    At O'Hare having an insulin pump I was treated like a terrorist. It was almost like the state was made because I could not be compelled by law to take it off. So I had to go through an extra 20 to 30 Min's of searching everything I had and wiping it down for bomb testing. Now at Ft Lauderdale airport, nothing at all. Wore it through the scanner and it did not set it off so they said go ahead.

    So it really depends on the rules and airport not the TSA who is just trying to do their job.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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    Re: Sexual assault in airports

    [QUOTE=Catz Part Deux;1059089219]Also, this is a strawman. QUOTE]

    Not really - a response to using travel out of a small airport to extrapolate how the TSA operates, frequency or lack therefore of rudeness, etc overall is not in of itself a strawman. If you travel out of big and small airports alike with some frequency you see a wider attitude variety than just going in or out of small airports, or just going in or out of large airports.

    Regardless of how frequent or not it is, why should that matter at all? The fact that it is occurring in the way it is nowwithout any real means of stopping it is inherently, IMO, disgusting. If it is indeed true that they are patting genitalia in the manner spoken of in a few recently publishedarticles , it needs to be addressed, as I'm sure the limited administrative right to search granted to the TSA doesn't include patdowns that //seem// to be made with the intent of making passengers choose the body scanner from then on.

    If they were doing their job, they wouldn't feel the need to add all these measures, to make the news as frequently as they do now. Black Dog, you should NOT have to take that - in fact, the treatment by those agenst should have resulted in summoning a supervisor, as 20-30 minutes over an insulin pump is hardly reasonable, and I'm sure that regulations control the inspection of medical devices.


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    Re: Sexual assault in airports

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    Not really - a response to using travel out of a small airport to extrapolate how the TSA operates, frequency or lack therefore of rudeness, etc overall is not in of itself a strawman. If you travel out of big and small airports alike with some frequency you see a wider attitude variety than just going in or out of small airports, or just going in or out of large airports.
    You think I fly 60k miles a year, and only go in and out of small airports? You should have your flux capacitor checked out...that isn't even remotely logical.

    What I think happened here is that you have some kind of axe to grind, for reasons I'm not really clear on, and you're just looking for an excuse to do it. Your posts aren't even rational.

    Whenever an agency has thousands of employees who have daily contact with millions of people, someone is bound to get their panties in a wad. In no way am I excusing rudeness. I'm just suggesting that it's normal for people to get disgruntled in airport security check lines for reasons that have zero to do with the behavior of the TSA staff. If TSA staff act unprofessionally, that should be dealt with. However, it is my opinion that most of the unpleasantness tends to revolve around infrequent travelers who don't understand the rules or follow instructions.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 11-08-10 at 12:56 PM.

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    Re: Sexual assault in airports

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    Black Dog, you should NOT have to take that - in fact, the treatment by those agenst should have resulted in summoning a supervisor, as 20-30 minutes over an insulin pump is hardly reasonable, and I'm sure that regulations control the inspection of medical devices.
    It is the regulations...

    “Good morning,” I say, standing still, “just want you to know I am wearing an insulin pump – so the alarm may sound.”

    “Hmmm, hey Carla,” says agent 1, “we got something here. Not sure what we do. Think it’s a secondary. Need a full check.”

    “What’s a secondary?” asks Carla.

    “Just do it.” says Agent 1.

    Carla leads me to the suspect chair with the white-lined feet on the mat next to it. I place my feet inside the two white spaces. She asks me if I would like to accompany her to a private room and I say no. So far, it feels very standard and I happily cooperate. She asks me to show her the pump again and to touch it with both my hands. I remove it from my chest and lay it in my lap doing as she says. She then rubs white circular pieces of paper against my hands and inserts these into a machine detector of some sort. She does this twice just to be sure. After this, she screens my entire body with a wand, but I do not have to undress. The she asks me to sit still while she looks through my bag. Without turning around, she asks me if there is anything sharp and I tell her that it is safe for her to touch, nothing is open. Without my being able to see what she is doing, she removes everything from my computer bag and my purse and throws it on the counter. I lean a little forward and watch as she carries on. She rifles through my wallet, diabetes kit, zippered make-up pouch, book, magazines, eyeglass case and so on. I carry a small leather travel photo frame case of my daughter. I can see her opening that too. I consider that it has been at least 15 minutes since I sat down and probably 25 minutes since I got into the line. My belongings are now splayed on the table, and after one last glance, she throws everything back into my bags and tells me I am OK. I have one question before I leave.

    “What does secondary mean?” I am not daring her to say suspect, I earnestly want to know how I am defined.


    She shrugs her shoulders and tells the supervisor to come see me. I ask again.

    “All it means that anyone with an insulin pump or a medical device needs a full screen. It’s just procedure. We haven’t done anything wrong.”


    That story is almost word for word what happened to me. Over zealous law? Yes. TSA fault? No. They were kind and not overbearing. Even tried not to mess up my stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Sexual assault in airports

    TSA Groping Out Of Control carries the flag a bit further.

    Heathrow authorities were unable to deny a later example of the scanners being abused, when it emerged that a Heathrow worker had perved over a naked image of a female colleague after she passed through one of the devices, before commenting, “I love those gigantic tits”.

    Jo Margetson, 29, reported John Laker, 25, to the police after she had entered the x-ray machine by mistake and Laker took the image before making lewd comments.

    Airport security staff workers are among the least trustworthy people to operate these machines. These individuals are routinely caught abusing their authority for their own ego trip or sexual perversion.
    The systems are being manned by people like a TSA agent who flipped out and began screaming, “I am god, I’m in charge,” shortly after he got off duty at LAX earlier this year.

    With innumerable reports over the past ten years of TSA agents completely abusing their authority and going on petty power trips with little other motivation than to humiliate and degrade old people, pregnant women, and the physically disabled, while proclaiming themselves to be “Gods,” the fact that these people are now feeling up our children is revolting.
    This is not just "disgruntled" or "rude" behavior, although I am sure there is more than a fair share of that also.
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    Re: Sexual assault in airports

    A couple things.

    First, did she swipe your hands twice with the little circle thing? Or did she do your hands then something else? If she did your hands the only reason it'd be done twice is if for some reason the swipe they did was not done correctly to get a decent reading off the machine.

    Second, was there X-ray machines as you were going through (Gotta imagine there was unless it was a tiny flight). In general what you're saying with undoing your whole bag like that would be unusual I believe...then again, I did not do checkpoint and their x-rays worked different than baggage so admittedly there may be other policies there. It seems weird that she'd go through all your stuff but it may due to two reasons. Which takes me to...

    Third, "Secondary" means secondary screening. This is screening that is beyond the standard procedures of running you through the metal detector (and sniffer if they have one) and having your stuff go through the x-ray. If they have to have you walk over and get a more thurough inspection that is called "secondary screening". This happens when people have issues that require it, such as medical devices or issues when someone has significant metal in their body. It also happens at random intervals as well I believe. There are strict protocols on what to do with regards to this and everything is supposed to be articulated to the passenger and asked of them prior to acting.

    Fourth, this all leads me to a conclussion about Carla. Carla was probably a rather new person into the field and one that didn't, sadly, listen to closely during training. The lack of knowing what a secondary means helps lead me to believe this. The rather disorganized way you seem to suggest she acted with your bag also sounds like someone whose relatively new and hasn't fully had their supervisors come down on them yet for the poor workmanship. Its also why it likely took you far longer than it should've. Secondary screening is more time intensive but even then if everything is going smoothly it shouldn't be more than 10 or so minutes at the upper end as the purpose is primarily to get people moving and get them to their flights saftely.

    If this was at a major airport this all makes even more sense to me as to the reasons it happens. While yes, I understand and would agree part of it is arguably overbearing TSA policy, another part of it is the sad state of things with the agency. Many in the public dislike the notion of TSA as a whole and having to deal with it, many of which don't just attribute the heightened saftey procedures to them but even forget that much of what they do was already done by private companies prior to it anyways. The various regulations passed by higher up that people dislike end up being vented at the employees on the line as they are the face of TSA for so many people. The pay, especially in places like DC, is attrociously low and promotion potential is very small. Due to this turnover is high which means you're always likely on any trip to have a decent chance of likely running into, either directly or as your bag travels, someone who is 4 months or less on the job.

    Which I think is where most of the issue comes in when you get complaints that aren't about attitude but about actions. The training is uniformed across all the agency, and its good training. But you're advertising a position that could use intelligent people to fill it, but only requires a high school diploma and only pays like a job that you'd get with only a high school diploma. So you have continually new people, some of which who may not have cared all that much about paying attention or grasping the training, and when that happens procedures sometimes get messed up...sometimes erring on the side of overzealous in hopes of not getting in trouble for not doing enough. I'm not saying that's right, its not, but I think that's where most of these cases come in more than people trying to "abuse power" or purposefully "incompotent".

    The public simply wants the impossible, as is so often with people. They want skilled, intelligent, professional people who know what they're doing...and they hate that there's so many of them and demand that the agency doesn't spend a ton of money while having many people take their TSA general frustrations out on the ground level people. The two desires don't mix well.

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    Re: Sexual assault in airports

    prisonplanet and infowars.

    Stop the presses. Maybe next we'll get a link to a guys cousins friends account on their local message board.

    /sigh

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    Re: Sexual assault in airports

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    A couple things.

    First, did she swipe your hands twice with the little circle thing? Or did she do your hands then something else? If she did your hands the only reason it'd be done twice is if for some reason the swipe they did was not done correctly to get a decent reading off the machine.

    Second, was there X-ray machines as you were going through (Gotta imagine there was unless it was a tiny flight). In general what you're saying with undoing your whole bag like that would be unusual I believe...then again, I did not do checkpoint and their x-rays worked different than baggage so admittedly there may be other policies there. It seems weird that she'd go through all your stuff but it may due to two reasons. Which takes me to...

    Third, "Secondary" means secondary screening. This is screening that is beyond the standard procedures of running you through the metal detector (and sniffer if they have one) and having your stuff go through the x-ray. If they have to have you walk over and get a more thurough inspection that is called "secondary screening". This happens when people have issues that require it, such as medical devices or issues when someone has significant metal in their body. It also happens at random intervals as well I believe. There are strict protocols on what to do with regards to this and everything is supposed to be articulated to the passenger and asked of them prior to acting.

    Fourth, this all leads me to a conclussion about Carla. Carla was probably a rather new person into the field and one that didn't, sadly, listen to closely during training. The lack of knowing what a secondary means helps lead me to believe this. The rather disorganized way you seem to suggest she acted with your bag also sounds like someone whose relatively new and hasn't fully had their supervisors come down on them yet for the poor workmanship. Its also why it likely took you far longer than it should've. Secondary screening is more time intensive but even then if everything is going smoothly it shouldn't be more than 10 or so minutes at the upper end as the purpose is primarily to get people moving and get them to their flights saftely.

    If this was at a major airport this all makes even more sense to me as to the reasons it happens. While yes, I understand and would agree part of it is arguably overbearing TSA policy, another part of it is the sad state of things with the agency. Many in the public dislike the notion of TSA as a whole and having to deal with it, many of which don't just attribute the heightened saftey procedures to them but even forget that much of what they do was already done by private companies prior to it anyways. The various regulations passed by higher up that people dislike end up being vented at the employees on the line as they are the face of TSA for so many people. The pay, especially in places like DC, is attrociously low and promotion potential is very small. Due to this turnover is high which means you're always likely on any trip to have a decent chance of likely running into, either directly or as your bag travels, someone who is 4 months or less on the job.

    Which I think is where most of the issue comes in when you get complaints that aren't about attitude but about actions. The training is uniformed across all the agency, and its good training. But you're advertising a position that could use intelligent people to fill it, but only requires a high school diploma and only pays like a job that you'd get with only a high school diploma. So you have continually new people, some of which who may not have cared all that much about paying attention or grasping the training, and when that happens procedures sometimes get messed up...sometimes erring on the side of overzealous in hopes of not getting in trouble for not doing enough. I'm not saying that's right, its not, but I think that's where most of these cases come in more than people trying to "abuse power" or purposefully "incompotent".

    The public simply wants the impossible, as is so often with people. They want skilled, intelligent, professional people who know what they're doing...and they hate that there's so many of them and demand that the agency doesn't spend a ton of money while having many people take their TSA general frustrations out on the ground level people. The two desires don't mix well.
    Zyph, her story is dead on. I can personally verify it happens. It happened to me because of my insulin pump almost word for word. The have to physically go through your things and wipe them down with the bomb material pad. They also pat you down and frisk you.

    I don't know why you want to discount the story. Many insulin pump wearers can tell you exactly the same story.

    PS: they make you sit there while they go through your stuff. It takes time. I had 2 bags and it took a long time because they are being careful. Not like they want to throw your stuff around willy nilly.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 11-08-10 at 03:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  10. #30
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    Re: Sexual assault in airports

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Zyph, her story is dead on. I can personally verify it happens. It happened to me because of my insulin pump almost word for word. The have to physically go through your things and wipe them down with the bomb material pad. They also pat you down and frisk you.

    I don't know why you want to discount the story. Many insulin pump wearers can tell you exactly the same story.
    Huh? I'm not discounting it. I absolutely think it happened.

    The only thing I'm discounting was the notion that the near 30 minutes she talked about as being normal and the disorganized searching through her bag. Both of which I don't discount can't happen, but regulation wise with someone that's not relatively new to the job SHOULDN'T happen. But everything else...yeah, she's pretty much spot on and I'm not trying to discount it. What I was doing was attempting to give likely reasons why certain things that were odd or a bit off from the standard was occuring, and since you said it mirrored your experience, explain to you what "Secondary" screening is as opposed to "primary" screening which is the standard xray/metal detector procedure.

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