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Thread: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

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    Re: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Yeah, but it requires a lot more money to do so if you have to keep offering higher and higher enlistment and/or reenlistment bonuses.
    All the more reason to lift all the other bans that are in place. Yes?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    As a man with some apparent military experience you should know that replacements aren't instant and they aren't free.
    There are BCT course getting kicked off, every week in this country. People are walking into a recruting station, every minute of the day, probably every second. Not once, did I ever serve in an under strength unit. All the units I served in were at 100%+ strength. Even in Desert Storm, we recieved newbies straight from AIT. They're purdy instant.

    Perhaps, if gays wouldn't knowingly violate the law, the costs wouldn't be a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Perhaps, if gays wouldn't knowingly violate the law, the costs wouldn't be a problem.
    The law is "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." The military goes out of its way to root out gays even when they are not telling.

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    Re: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    The law is "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." The military goes out of its way to root out gays even when they are not telling.
    No it doesn't.

    Currently, there is a ban on gays serving, openly in the military. Gays, join the military knowing that that ban is in place. Therefore, they're defrauding the government. When gays are discovered, they should be forced to back back every nickel that the government spent on them from the time they enlisted, to the time they were disharged.

    Bet we'd hear a different tune, then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No it doesn't.
    I believe the federal court which found DADT unconstitutional indicated that as many as 20% of DADT discharges have been reported by third partys. I would say that when 1 out of every 5 discharges is the result of the military starting an investigation based on someone outside the military claiming someone in the military is gay, then the military is activiely trying to root out gay soldiers.

    Colin Powell even specifically told Bill Clinton that this is not how the policy would be enforced. It means that even when you are on leave from the military, in your own home, you can be outed by someone not in any way involved with the military and be investigated and discharged for it.

    Are you telling me that gays sign up so that they can be outed to the military when they never tell anyone in the military they are gay? Is that the law as you interpret it? How can you justify it?
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 11-05-10 at 10:30 PM.

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    Re: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I believe the federal court which found DADT unconstitutional indicated that as many as 20% of DADT discharges have been reported by third partys. I would say that when 1 out of every 5 discharges is the result of the military starting an investigation based on someone outside the military claiming someone in the military is gay, then the military is activiely trying to root out gay soldiers.

    Colin Powell even specifically told Bill Clinton that this is not how the policy would be enforced. It means that even when you are on leave from the military, in your own home, you can be outed by someone not in any way involved with the military and be investigated and discharged for it.
    Army Regulations specifically state that an investigation can only be launched, based on a credible third party report. I think where most gays go wrong, is when they are confronted, they take a gay pride pill and say, "you're damn right I'm gay!! Gay and proud of it!!!", instead of excercising their right under Don't ask, Don't Tell and shut the **** up, refusing to asnwer any questions regarding their sexuality. Saw a soldier do that once and he was never bothered about it, again.

    Are you telling me that gays sign up so that they can be outed to the military when they never tell anyone in the military they are gay? Is that the law as you interpret it? How can you justify it?
    No, I'm saying that when gays join the service, knowing that there is a ban on gays, they should be made to pay back every dollar spent on them, while they were there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Army Regulations specifically state that an investigation can only be launched, based on a credible third party report. I think where most gays go wrong, is when they are confronted, they take a gay pride pill and say, "you're damn right I'm gay!! Gay and proud of it!!!", instead of excercising their right under Don't ask, Don't Tell and shut the **** up, refusing to asnwer any questions regarding their sexuality. Saw a soldier do that once and he was never bothered about it, again.
    I think cases like these prove you wrong...

    Jene Newsome Discharged: Rapid City Police Told Air Force That Sergeant Was Lesbian
    Decorated Air Force nurse, barred over lesbianism, sues

    The military has discharged people who have never outed themselves, but were outed by others. There is nothing wrong with being gay and in the military, the waste of money comes when the military allows third parties who are in no way affiliated with the military to out soldiers and then investigates and discharges them. The gay soldiers played by the rules, it was the military that went out of its way to kick them out.

    Frankly, I think you have gone off the deep end. Most Americans do not support this policy, most troops don't care, it has been found to endanger national security and unit cohesion, it has been enforced in a way that violates Constitutional rights to privacy, and you are still trying to support it. What would it take for you to support repeal of DADT?
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 11-05-10 at 11:12 PM.

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    Re: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

    When I said that, "Army Regulations specifically state, that an investigation can only be launched, based on a credible third party report"; what did you think I meant? A cop could qualify as a, "credible third party". Yes?

    The military has discharged people who have never outed themselves, but were outed by others. There is nothing wrong with being gay and in the military, the waste of money comes when the military allows third parties who are in no way affiliated with the military to out soldiers and then investigates and discharges them. The gay soldiers played by the rules, it was the military that went out of its way to kick them out.
    Were you at the investigation? Do you have transcripts of the interview? Do you have the first clue what was said and by whom? You don't do you?

    Frankly, I think you have gone off the deep end. Most Americans do not support this policy, most troops don't care, it has been found to endanger national security and unit cohesion, it has been enforced in a way that violates Constitutional rights to privacy, and you are still trying to support it. What would it take for you to support repeal of DADT?
    Oh really?!? Gotta link for that???

    Oh and BTW, you'll never find where I support a ban on gays in the military. Nice try, though.
    Last edited by apdst; 11-05-10 at 11:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Right now little to no bonuses are being offered...

    And yet they are turning folks down.
    Even some rates in the reserves are getting bonuses. It all depends on the need for that rate.

    New Navy Reenlistment Bonuses - Bonus Center - Military.com

    *note: I don't know if everyone will be able to see this, because my computer auto signs me into this site

    but it does confirm that there are definitely bonuses still being offered for many critical rates, in fact, it states that there are over 180 rates in the Navy that can get bonuses

    And Navy nukes are still getting bonuses for enlisting and reenlisting. In fact, despite having almost 12 years of total time in the military, the last two being the reserves, I could go to a recruiter right now and get enlisted because of my past nuclear experience, according to the recruiters in Raleigh. And my husband met a few like me that did just that while he was in "boot camp" this past April. There are pretty high requirements for being a nuke however, so they won't consider offering it to people below the minimum ASVAB score or who can't show that they had at least a B average in some HS or college higher math class, like Algebra or Calc. And, nukes get a psychiatric eval during boot camp to try to keep those who might be at risk to commit suicide out of the program. They also need to be able to get a security clearance. These are generally reasons why many ratings are undermanned, because the average recruit cannot meet one or more of the requirements.
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    Re: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    When I said that, "Army Regulations specifically state, that an investigation can only be launched, based on a credible third party report"; what did you think I meant? A cop could qualify as a, "credible third party". Yes?
    I just wanted to point out how much bull it is for you to blame all gays who get discharged under DADT when many of them never told, they were outed, and often by people not even associated with the military.

    Were you at the investigation? Do you have transcripts of the interview? Do you have the first clue what was said and by whom? You don't do you?
    Do you?

    Oh really?!? Gotta link for that???
    The findings of the federal judge who reviewed the policy and found it unconstitutional. In her ruling she explained that the policy doesn’t help military readiness and instead has a “direct and deleterious effect” on the armed services by hurting recruitment efforts during wartime and requiring the discharge of service members who have critical skills and training. It is pretty self evident that when you are kicking out hundreds of Arab language specialists under this policy when there is a great demand for them, that it is going to have a deterious effect on our ability to collect intelligence and communicate with Iraqi forces. Now you are entitled to your, "everyone can be replaced" view but when "replaced" means someone else has to end up serving again and again, you are ignoring the fact that morale is going to suffer because the job still needs to be done.

    Oh and BTW, you'll never find where I support a ban on gays in the military. Nice try, though.
    Dude, you are the only person I see on this forum who is left arguing in support of this policy. Even NP said he does not care as long as the troops don't care. At a certain point, you just have to admit you are supporting a bad policy and let it go. If you can't do that, then maybe you ought to take a good long look at yourself and see if maybe this isn't about military policy or what is best for the nation but how you feel about gay people in general.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 11-06-10 at 01:41 AM.

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