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Thread: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

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    Re: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    "Concerned about the consequences" is not the same thing as "uncomfortable serving with." In fact, it could mean just the opposite.

    If the number is accurate, we should disband the Marine Corps.
    Disband the Marine Corps? Even if the number was accurate? (Which I suspect it's not) 95% seems high, but I'll bet that it's pretty close to 80%. And, if you took a poll and asked people honestly what they thought of homosexual sex, not guys asked about lesbians, guys asked about other men kissing and having anal sex, I suspect the number would also be close to 90 - 95%. Of course, this would mean that the survey would be free from the thought police cracking down on you.. You know, kinda like you Deuce..

    Same goes for women, although they appear a little less vocal about it, but the number would still be fairly high IMO.


    Tim-
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    Re: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Disband the Marine Corps? Even if the number was accurate? (Which I suspect it's not) 95% seems high, but I'll bet that it's pretty close to 80%. And, if you took a poll and asked people honestly what they thought of homosexual sex, not guys asked about lesbians, guys asked about other men kissing and having anal sex, I suspect the number would also be close to 90 - 95%. Of course, this would mean that the survey would be free from the thought police cracking down on you.. You know, kinda like you Deuce..

    Same goes for women, although they appear a little less vocal about it, but the number would still be fairly high IMO.


    Tim-
    It really doesn't matter how many might be uncomfortable with serving with openly gay men. They certainly didn't join the Marine Corps to be comfortable. And there are certainly other Marines that are uncomfortable with serving alongside some Marines for various reasons. I knew some Marines who were definitely prejudice, in fact, I knew some soldiers who were too. I'm sure these guys, and probably others, were quite uncomfortable with any guys who dated outside their race. Heck, I knew a white girl in boot camp who was very friendly with the black girls, had no problem with them at all. And she was pretty friendly with me, up til I showed her a picture of my black boyfriend. After that, she acted completely different toward me. There are lots of people out there who are uncomfortable with others dating someone who is not the same race as themselves. There are also people out there who are uncomfortable working with people of different beliefs as them. How many Marines do you think would be comfortable working alongside a Muslim? How about an atheist? Or perhaps a person who is openly liberal?

    Also, most people get more comfortable with people after they get to know them. It takes time, but it will happen. Once those Marines realize that not much, if anything, in their life has changed with gays being allowed to serve openly, then most won't have a problem at all.
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    Re: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It really doesn't matter how many might be uncomfortable with serving with openly gay men. They certainly didn't join the Marine Corps to be comfortable. And there are certainly other Marines that are uncomfortable with serving alongside some Marines for various reasons. I knew some Marines who were definitely prejudice, in fact, I knew some soldiers who were too. I'm sure these guys, and probably others, were quite uncomfortable with any guys who dated outside their race. Heck, I knew a white girl in boot camp who was very friendly with the black girls, had no problem with them at all. And she was pretty friendly with me, up til I showed her a picture of my black boyfriend. After that, she acted completely different toward me. There are lots of people out there who are uncomfortable with others dating someone who is not the same race as themselves. There are also people out there who are uncomfortable working with people of different beliefs as them. How many Marines do you think would be comfortable working alongside a Muslim? How about an atheist? Or perhaps a person who is openly liberal?

    Also, most people get more comfortable with people after they get to know them. It takes time, but it will happen. Once those Marines realize that not much, if anything, in their life has changed with gays being allowed to serve openly, then most won't have a problem at all.
    By that logic, service members should be allowed to join orginizations, that are currently banned?

    Or, are our servicemen not mature and professional enough to look past a person's personal politics and soldier on? They're not in the service to be comfortable, anyway. Right?

    We can also start forcing females to share open showers with males. If they don't like it, then they can truck their asses right back where they came from.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    By that logic, service members should be allowed to join orginizations, that are currently banned?
    Let's not start this again. It is already taking place in another similar thread, and I have given you plenty of reasons why the situations are different.


    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Or, are our servicemen not mature and professional enough to look past a person's personal politics and soldier on? They're not in the service to be comfortable, anyway. Right?
    No. It is not just the other servicemembers who would be uncomfortable serving with the one who is a member of the organization. If the organization declares that they have an agenda that includes mistrust and/or violence and/or bias against others just due to their race or religion or some other classification like these, and a servicemember is a part of such a group, then they are declaring that they believe in the principles and agendas of that group. This shows that that servicemember may be advocating mistrust, violence, or bias against one or more of his fellow servicemembers. This can cause harm.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    We can also start forcing females to share open showers with males. If they don't like it, then they can truck their asses right back where they came from.
    Honestly, I could care less if I had to shower with males. I think my husband might have an issue with it.

    The problem with this argument is that you have to take into account all of the reason that women don't share facilities with men, not just the fact that women might be uncomfortable with it. Men and women can't really hide their sex from the military and most can't hide it from fellow servicemembers. There are obvious, physical differences between men and women, not to mention biological differences. Gay men currently share showers with straight men because they are all still men. They all have the same parts and they all have pretty much the same bodily functions. A gay man isn't going to leave bloody tampons or maxi pads in the bathroom, a woman might (especially some nasty women). Straight men have to share bathrooms with gay men in civilian places, women do not have to share such facilities with men in most civilian places.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

    I am adamantly opposed to gays serving openly in the military.

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    Re: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

    Quote Originally Posted by C-21 Cowboy View Post
    I am adamantly opposed to gays serving openly in the military.
    Why? What are your reasons for feeling this way?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Why? What are your reasons for feeling this way?
    I spent 22 years in the military. There is a machismo mystique prevalent, particularly in the combat arms, that will equate homosexuality with weakness. They will be ostracized and this will effect a unit's cohesion.

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    Re: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

    Quote Originally Posted by C-21 Cowboy View Post
    I spent 22 years in the military. There is a machismo mystique prevalent, particularly in the combat arms, that will equate homosexuality with weakness. They will be ostracized and this will effect a unit's cohesion.
    But they are already there. And there is nothing that will say that they have to be openly gay. I think this is the issue. Many guys think that every or even most homosexuals will "come out" just because they can. This simply isn't true. Many, and most in the Marines, will be smart enough to determine if their "coming out" to their fellow servicemembers will be acceptable or not and whether it would actually cause problems. If it will cause problems, then they will most likely still hide their sexuality from their fellow Marines/soldiers/sailors, but at least they won't have to fear being discharged just for being gay.

    Also, there are currently Marines that are gay. If no one knows they are gay and still doing their job, then why would they somehow be weaker just because homosexuals are viewed as weaker? If some do see it this way, then maybe the Marines should institute training, including a little common sense training, that points out that if someone already showed that they are just as strong and capable of doing the job as you or any other Marine is, then why should their sexuality, if it does come out, be a problem just because now people know?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    But they are already there. And there is nothing that will say that they have to be openly gay. I think this is the issue. Many guys think that every or even most homosexuals will "come out" just because they can. This simply isn't true. Many, and most in the Marines, will be smart enough to determine if their "coming out" to their fellow servicemembers will be acceptable or not and whether it would actually cause problems. If it will cause problems, then they will most likely still hide their sexuality from their fellow Marines/soldiers/sailors, but at least they won't have to fear being discharged just for being gay.

    Also, there are currently Marines that are gay. If no one knows they are gay and still doing their job, then why would they somehow be weaker just because homosexuals are viewed as weaker? If some do see it this way, then maybe the Marines should institute training, including a little common sense training, that points out that if someone already showed that they are just as strong and capable of doing the job as you or any other Marine is, then why should their sexuality, if it does come out, be a problem just because now people know?
    Attending sensitivity training will only build resentment in the ranks as yet another sub-group is afforded victim status. Keep them in the closet, and despite the attempts by proponents of the repealing of DADT to paint a different picture, the military is not crawling with gay people. We're talking about less than 2% of the total force that is homosexual. Being gay is a behavior, it is not a race or religion. It deserves no special rights or recognition, and doing so will mean more problems down the road regarding harrassment charges and/or prejudicial accusations.

    Hypothetical:

    For example Airman "Smith" is passed over for promotion and decides to complain it's because he's homosexual.

    Yet another reason to complain about not getting your way and playing the blame game.
    Last edited by C-21 Cowboy; 11-04-10 at 04:06 PM.

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    Re: 95% of Marines uncomfortable serving with openly gay troops

    Quote Originally Posted by C-21 Cowboy View Post
    Attending sensitivity training will only build resentment in the ranks as yet another sub-group is afforded victim status. Keep them in the closet, and despite the attempts by proponents of the repealing of DADT to paint a different picture, the military is not crawling with gay people. We're talking about less than 2% of the total force that is homosexual.
    They already attend tolerance training. They have to tolerate people of different races (and there are certainly racists in the Marines, I knew some personally). They have to tolerate people with different religious views (my husband was not a Christian Marine, but he was a good Marine). Tolerance training shouldn't be about making people victims. It should be about making those who have problems with someone based on a random characteristic, that is not in itself harmful to others, see that if the person is able to do the job, then that should be what matters. Anyone who can't/won't do their jobs are the problems.

    And those 2% or less should not have to worry about being discharged for something that does not affect others unless those others are allowing it to affect them because of their own prejudices/biases/beliefs.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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